This is stemming from a previous discussion, and from the look of it people certainly have opinions and would love to be able to discuss them.
This ties into a discussion that can be found here.
The original issues? How video games objectify women, and by that I mean within the games itself. Perhaps even female gamers as well.
Please keep this on topic, please keep it civil. This is a discussion not an argument. Please keep it on topic and if need be, take it to Private Messages if it doesn't fit this discussion. Keep in mind the Forums Rules.
This ties into a discussion that can be found here.
The original issues? How video games objectify women, and by that I mean within the games itself. Perhaps even female gamers as well.
Please keep this on topic, please keep it civil. This is a discussion not an argument. Please keep it on topic and if need be, take it to Private Messages if it doesn't fit this discussion. Keep in mind the Forums Rules.
Oh dear. Should I move my post from the other thread over here? 
It might fit here better.
It might fit here better.
I posted something and then decided I sounded like an idiot. So I just took it out 
; Sorry.
; Sorry.
Responding to the idea that skimpy clothing = no dignity that came up in the other thread...
As a belly dancer, this is something that is near and dear to my heart. It's an ancient fertility dance. The costumes are revealing and downright sexy. I am very aware of constantly trying to walk that line between sexy and slutty. It's a whole dance devoted to the idea that there's power and dignity in being a woman, even a half-naked one. Of course, there are some people who see cleavage and immediately default to "without dignity" or even "stripper", and I think that's sad but there's nothing I can do about that.
For example, here is an idol of mine, Rachel Brice, wearing very little on her torso and still generally being the embodiment of awesome.
But while I may plead "Don't hate me because I'm beautiful!", I can see how the video game industry has less standing to make the claim that skimpy doesn't equal objectivity. They've been making female characters with no depth beyond boobage for so long, that they are under an intense amount of scrutiny, and rightly so.
However, I just really wanted to make the point that it is possible to maintain one's dignity, and even to celebrate it, with skin showing.
As a belly dancer, this is something that is near and dear to my heart. It's an ancient fertility dance. The costumes are revealing and downright sexy. I am very aware of constantly trying to walk that line between sexy and slutty. It's a whole dance devoted to the idea that there's power and dignity in being a woman, even a half-naked one. Of course, there are some people who see cleavage and immediately default to "without dignity" or even "stripper", and I think that's sad but there's nothing I can do about that.
For example, here is an idol of mine, Rachel Brice, wearing very little on her torso and still generally being the embodiment of awesome.
But while I may plead "Don't hate me because I'm beautiful!", I can see how the video game industry has less standing to make the claim that skimpy doesn't equal objectivity. They've been making female characters with no depth beyond boobage for so long, that they are under an intense amount of scrutiny, and rightly so.
However, I just really wanted to make the point that it is possible to maintain one's dignity, and even to celebrate it, with skin showing.
Interesting example, Kim! I used to work at a greek/mediterranean restaurant where the uniform, if I wished, was essentially a more modest belly dancer outfit. Once a month we'd have professional belly dancers come to perform and more than once I had to tell men that if they were going to act like that (hooting, hollaring, cat whistling and waving money) they can leave and go the 8 blocks north to the strippers.
Could you say, or anyone for that matter- that female video/pc game characters may still wear skimpy clothing but are starting to have more depth to them?
On the other side of the coin, look at Peach. She's extremely modest but she's pretty blonde (excuse the expression), she's always getting caught and put into that Castle. And when I played her in Smash Brothers all she could do wsa hover.. I mean.. come on.
Could you say, or anyone for that matter- that female video/pc game characters may still wear skimpy clothing but are starting to have more depth to them?
On the other side of the coin, look at Peach. She's extremely modest but she's pretty blonde (excuse the expression), she's always getting caught and put into that Castle. And when I played her in Smash Brothers all she could do wsa hover.. I mean.. come on.
Dylan wrote:
Interesting example, Kim! I used to work at a greek/mediterranean restaurant where the uniform, if I wished, was essentially a more modest belly dancer outfit. Once a month we'd have professional belly dancers come to perform and more than once I had to tell men that if they were going to act like that (hooting, hollaring, cat whistling and waving money) they can leave and go the 8 blocks north to the strippers.
It definitely happens, but I view it as more of a cultural problem that people think it's okay to talk to someone in a degrading manner. There are for sure ways to express appreciation for beauty without coming off as a drooling gorilla or a downright predator.
Personally, I would like to live in a world where we could believe in beauty, sexiness and brains not being mutually exclusive.
Yeah up until recent years Peach has been utterly helpless and flat everywhere but her pixelated chest. She's starting to get up and kick some butt with the boys, though. At least she showed up to the smash bros fight this time. xD
We all know Lara Croft was not designed with functionality in mind.
But that's fine. I like my eyecandy in games. Personality and brains are what matter most, but we shouldn't dismiss physical attraction either. It's a natural, basic instinct to like other people and find them attractive. Skimpy clothing is usually designed to enhance the areas on a body we find attractive. A shirtless guy with nice fitting pants who looks like he can take care of himself makes many women swoon. I don't see why we can't have the equivalent of a woman whose dress brings out her curves and reveals some cleavage, or exposes her belly button.
Take Lara Croft. Although she's a bit skinny for my taste, she is designed to be attractive looking for the male gamer base way back when female gamers were highly uncommon. However, as attractive as she is, she wouldn't be nearly as appealing if she had straw for brains. She is smart, resourceful, caring and is portrayed as a good person all around. If she did not have these features I feel even pent up teenage boys wouldn't want to play the game due to its excessively boring and lame heroine.
I've always felt that it matters most what we make of it. I'm not bothered by it because I know that these are fictional beings designed to look like the generalized idea of beauty for men. I admit I like how some of them look too. But I also understand that these characters' looks are very unimportant and that they are fictional for a reason. They usually embody that which we can't have or can't be to satisfy something in our heads, a craving for... perfection, for the 'ultimate' woman etc. If I know this, then the looks of a character matters little to me.
We probably can't stop the fact game designers will continue to exploit the idealized image of female beauty, and make them skimpy to enhance that idea. But if we teach ourselves and future generations to take it with a grain of salt, and understand it is and can never be real, well... maybe the game designers will change their minds too.
Just my two cents. Feel free to disagree! This is just my perspective on the matter.
But that's fine. I like my eyecandy in games. Personality and brains are what matter most, but we shouldn't dismiss physical attraction either. It's a natural, basic instinct to like other people and find them attractive. Skimpy clothing is usually designed to enhance the areas on a body we find attractive. A shirtless guy with nice fitting pants who looks like he can take care of himself makes many women swoon. I don't see why we can't have the equivalent of a woman whose dress brings out her curves and reveals some cleavage, or exposes her belly button.
Take Lara Croft. Although she's a bit skinny for my taste, she is designed to be attractive looking for the male gamer base way back when female gamers were highly uncommon. However, as attractive as she is, she wouldn't be nearly as appealing if she had straw for brains. She is smart, resourceful, caring and is portrayed as a good person all around. If she did not have these features I feel even pent up teenage boys wouldn't want to play the game due to its excessively boring and lame heroine.
I've always felt that it matters most what we make of it. I'm not bothered by it because I know that these are fictional beings designed to look like the generalized idea of beauty for men. I admit I like how some of them look too. But I also understand that these characters' looks are very unimportant and that they are fictional for a reason. They usually embody that which we can't have or can't be to satisfy something in our heads, a craving for... perfection, for the 'ultimate' woman etc. If I know this, then the looks of a character matters little to me.
We probably can't stop the fact game designers will continue to exploit the idealized image of female beauty, and make them skimpy to enhance that idea. But if we teach ourselves and future generations to take it with a grain of salt, and understand it is and can never be real, well... maybe the game designers will change their minds too.
Just my two cents. Feel free to disagree! This is just my perspective on the matter.
Kim wrote:
Personally, I would like to live in a world where we could believe in beauty, sexiness and brains not being mutually exclusive.
I want to live there too.
When playing games and I encounter a female character that has no personality, just a shapely figure, it's not sexy, it's boring. Give her some personality, make her an interesting character to interact with (or play as if she's the lead). Bioware is very good at that, a few other game developers are too but it's not common enough for my liking.
Oof. I think I mostly got out everything I had to give on this subject earlier. Maybe tomorrow I'll have some more contributions.
Although, there is a comparison I can do, here, between games that feature, as it were, 'strippers', and how personality of said strippers makes (or doesn't) make the game.
I spoke briefly about Bayonetta in the other thread. This is not a children's game by any stretch of the imagination - it stars a witch whose job is to brutally hunt down angelic creatures (lest her demonic compatriots drag her down into hell for eternity), and in doing that job, utilizes a bunch of magic powers that generally use her hair as a catalyst. Oh, and by the way? Her hair also forms most of her clothing. When she diverts the hair to other purposes, she gets fairly naked.
Bayonetta doesn't know much about her past when the game starts out, but over the course of it, we learn who she is and why she's that way. We see that she's a pretty smart lady, and a pretty darned fierce one. She's powerful and confident. She's pretty over the top, too - much like Lara Croft, she was designed to appeal to guys, and I'm sure she does that well (and yes, she appeals to me!). She has personality, though, and even though so much of her portrayal is sexually charged and provocative, she stands out as a fascinating character.
On the other hand, we have Ar tonelico Qoga: Knell of Ar Ciel (say that ten times fast, go on), the last in a series of games where song plays a heavy role. The protagonist here is a guy, but he gets his power through (exclusively female) people called Reyvateils. I haven't played the game, myself, but from the review of it that I read, it seems that for the Reyvateils, their power is strengthened by 'purging'. Fancy way of saying they strip out of their clothes.
"But Dragon! That's the same as Bayonetta! She uses strong attacks and her clothes vanish!"
Okay, yes, but remember, Bayonetta has personality. The main Reyvateil in the game? The review at RPGFan sums her up as thus:
(possible spoilers!)
"Saki is one of the lead female characters, she is a crux in the story, and is she by far one of the worst protagonists in an RPG. At times, it feels like the narrative is trying to convince the player to pick her over Finnel and it does an awful job at that. Saki destroys this game the same way Alfinia in Grandia III and Ryfia in Arc Rise Fantasia did for many. She looks like she's ten, talks like a baby in third person, pretends she's a cat, and is simply incapable of independent thought."
Also, you, as the male protagonist, have to convince her to strip. Charm her into it. And she looks and acts like a preteen. It just goes into all kinds of creepy territory, and I don't even want to be in the same room as it, really.
So! I guess you can sum up my views on this topic, at least, as thus - female sexuality in games is not necessarily a bad thing. However, sexuality should not be the only thing the game focuses on (hi DOA I'm looking at you) - the lady needs personality, too, and I'm not talking about some waifu-omg-helpless-desu scratch, here.
Although, there is a comparison I can do, here, between games that feature, as it were, 'strippers', and how personality of said strippers makes (or doesn't) make the game.
I spoke briefly about Bayonetta in the other thread. This is not a children's game by any stretch of the imagination - it stars a witch whose job is to brutally hunt down angelic creatures (lest her demonic compatriots drag her down into hell for eternity), and in doing that job, utilizes a bunch of magic powers that generally use her hair as a catalyst. Oh, and by the way? Her hair also forms most of her clothing. When she diverts the hair to other purposes, she gets fairly naked.
Bayonetta doesn't know much about her past when the game starts out, but over the course of it, we learn who she is and why she's that way. We see that she's a pretty smart lady, and a pretty darned fierce one. She's powerful and confident. She's pretty over the top, too - much like Lara Croft, she was designed to appeal to guys, and I'm sure she does that well (and yes, she appeals to me!). She has personality, though, and even though so much of her portrayal is sexually charged and provocative, she stands out as a fascinating character.
On the other hand, we have Ar tonelico Qoga: Knell of Ar Ciel (say that ten times fast, go on), the last in a series of games where song plays a heavy role. The protagonist here is a guy, but he gets his power through (exclusively female) people called Reyvateils. I haven't played the game, myself, but from the review of it that I read, it seems that for the Reyvateils, their power is strengthened by 'purging'. Fancy way of saying they strip out of their clothes.
"But Dragon! That's the same as Bayonetta! She uses strong attacks and her clothes vanish!"
Okay, yes, but remember, Bayonetta has personality. The main Reyvateil in the game? The review at RPGFan sums her up as thus:
(possible spoilers!)
"Saki is one of the lead female characters, she is a crux in the story, and is she by far one of the worst protagonists in an RPG. At times, it feels like the narrative is trying to convince the player to pick her over Finnel and it does an awful job at that. Saki destroys this game the same way Alfinia in Grandia III and Ryfia in Arc Rise Fantasia did for many. She looks like she's ten, talks like a baby in third person, pretends she's a cat, and is simply incapable of independent thought."
Also, you, as the male protagonist, have to convince her to strip. Charm her into it. And she looks and acts like a preteen. It just goes into all kinds of creepy territory, and I don't even want to be in the same room as it, really.
So! I guess you can sum up my views on this topic, at least, as thus - female sexuality in games is not necessarily a bad thing. However, sexuality should not be the only thing the game focuses on (hi DOA I'm looking at you) - the lady needs personality, too, and I'm not talking about some waifu-omg-helpless-desu scratch, here.
I believe that I'm going to stay out of this one for fear of accidentally ruining the atmosphere again. Have fun exploring the topic, and I apologize if I ruffled any feathers. It wasn't my intention.
Dragonfire wrote:
(Possible SPOILERS - saaaay, Kim, is a spoiler tag at all possible?)
You want this:
Code:
[spoiler]Put secrets here. It has to be highlighted to be read.[/spoiler]
Then it looks like this
Kim wrote:
However, I just really wanted to make the point that it is possible to maintain one's dignity, and even to celebrate it, with skin showing.
I think something like belly dancing is in a completely different category, though. It's an art form, done in an artistic setting. It's completely different from something like wearing a thong with nipple-tassles in a situation where a thong and nipple tassles aren't appropriate.
DrVirus wrote:
Kim wrote:
However, I just really wanted to make the point that it is possible to maintain one's dignity, and even to celebrate it, with skin showing.
I think something like belly dancing is in a completely different category, though. It's an art form, done in an artistic setting. It's completely different from something like wearing a thong with nipple-tassles in a situation where a thong and nipple tassles aren't appropriate.
Sure, I'm not saying skin is always appropriate. My only point is that it's also not never appropriate.
Anywho, back on the video game topic.
Compare these World of Warcraft models. These were the original female models for tauren and trolls. People complained that they weren't sexy enough, so they were changed. :C All the ladies are stereotypically ~hawt~ (and all the dudes are beefy, muscly lumberjacks.)
The only female character in the whole game that isn't totes sexay that I know of is Therazane the Stonemother: http://www.wowhead.com/npc=44025
Compare these World of Warcraft models. These were the original female models for tauren and trolls. People complained that they weren't sexy enough, so they were changed. :C All the ladies are stereotypically ~hawt~ (and all the dudes are beefy, muscly lumberjacks.)
The only female character in the whole game that isn't totes sexay that I know of is Therazane the Stonemother: http://www.wowhead.com/npc=44025
I would never guess the current Tauren female was actually female.
Kim wrote:
You want this:
Then it looks like this
Code:
[spoiler]Put secrets here. It has to be highlighted to be read.[/spoiler]
Then it looks like this
Oho! It's not on the BBcode page, just to let you know - or at least I'm silly and can't read today.
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