Community Discussion #3: January 27th 2013

Part 3 of 3

Part 1 - Part 2 - Part 3

Nuclear_Dingoz: I'll make you blush if i have to <3


SeraphicStar: *simply due


Rynh: What's the subject about?


Ravdaer: Well, we could uh..


Ravdaer: Teach etiquette (did I spell that right..?)


Rubix: Some people just need...well a firm smack. XD I know I did, if someone had been "kind" to me about my god-moding the second time around I don't think I would have clicked it in. But blatantly calling me out, that made me stop and go "Whoa...what happened?"


StarArmy: I think it's important to demonstrate that power alone is not the only way to be special or impressive.


StarArmy: Ultimately godmoding is a failure to be considerate of the other players. You want to find ways to broaden their point of view so that they start considering the feelings of other players and instead of making impressively powered characters, they just make impressive (e.g. well developed and likeable) characters that others enjoy playing with.


Kim: Rynh; The current question is, if people god mode because they want to feel "special", are there ways that the other players can help them to feel special without them having to god mode?


Earendill: SERA: I SEE WHAT YOU DID THERE


Kaji: I have to admit that I don't know how to make a God-moder feel special and simultaneously teach them to not god-mode. Mostly because they need to understand that they...uh, .. aren't. Special. They're a player like all the others.


Rynh: Aha, thanks for the heads up


Earendill: Pfff, everyone's special.


Kim: Good point, Kaji! Perhaps we are putting the cart before the horse. ;)


Ben: As has been suggested, you can ask them to come up with plot ideas. But in general, if you impress upon a god moder, kindly, the importance of character driven roleplay.... More than that. engage with them. They're used to being argued with and turned away, so ask them questions about their character and their motivations for violence. Try and lead them in a direction that has them asking questions themselves. Guide them through the right questions to ask by being interested. Good writing is driven by sane, well considered character motivation.


Earendill: Though here in Belgium being special means you're covered in mayo, ketchup and onions.


Rubix: XD Earen, I'll remember that.


Mellute: Sorry was at the bathroom.


Ben: This will tend to work better with new players than old ones.


Rynh: There's many ways of making a character feel more special than others, though not constantly. If someone is leading the RP, it's their job to present opportunities where every character has their chance to shine.


Sanne: I also like talking to people about it (in a nice way), and explain to them how god moding works against a story instead of helping it. It's a bit of a blunt approach usually, but in my experience a lot of people never considered that being amazing at everything gets boring fast and isn't very special when you think about it. Not when everyone else around you is amazing at everything too. ;)


Kim: In a previous discussion, the community defined "winning" for a RP as: Knowing that you have caused the other players to have a good time. Is it possible to introduce the glory of this concept to someone who doesn't yet understand it? How?


Mellute: Kim: Group make people feel like they belong. Here is where they are included and wanted.


Kaji: Difficult to do that, though, once they've annoyed the player base by auto-hitting and being overly assumptive.


Ben: Send them to RPR! lol


Kim: LOL Ben. XD


Nero: It is possible, but I'm not sure there is a quick way. One scene at a time with some guidance OOC if needed.


Rynh: True. Speaking OOCly to the person might help, if they're open for it.


Kim: The raising up of a good RPer is rarely if ever a quick process, methinks.


Mellute: I usually just have an adventure in mind and extend the story out to new people. For example, "Your character is vital to this mission! Please help out my character!" Then I involve the new person so that they can be the hero and what not. I let my own character take the backseat of the RP so that I can show the person how fun RP can be. Though it depends if my writing impresses them haha.


Ravdaer: It could be worth it in the end, though


Earendill: Indeed it isn't, Kim.


PenGryphon2007: In that case, Kim, I think it goes back to the basics of how to tell a good story. You need more than action, you need drama and tension and some element of suspension.


Nero: Some people take to it very quickly, it's the troubled ones we're talking about though, which is not, by definition, easy or quick.


Ben: It depends on a case by case basis. As an administrator I can often tell what kind of godmoder someone is, and that affects whether I bother to spend time with them, or remove them.


SeraphicStar: Sometimes the godmoder just isn't open to attempts to make them 'better'. Because telling them you want to help them get better is pretty much telling them they're bad now - and no one wants to hear that!


Ben: You should never tell a godmoder what your intentions are. Never say "I want to help make you better." Just engage with them.


Rynh: That's true, Seraph, but if no one wants to tell them their RP skills need work, they'll keep on godmoding, thinking it's alright


Mellute: I am glad I got to write one on one with a good RPer for a year. I learned a lot!


Kim: There are some really good points being made, here. :)


Kim: Ben: If you don't think you should tell people your intentions, what DO you tell them?


Earendill: I almost feel jealous for not making those points, almost ;D


StarArmy: Be a role model and have the community or thread standards/rules spelled out where you can refer the player to them. "Here's what we expect. Please work within our guidelines if you want your RP to be more successful."


Rynh: It's pretty difficult, being blunt. No one likes to look like a jerkface, but sometimes the direct approach is the best.


Rynh: It's what helped me improve, personally


Ben: Most roleplayers, even godmoders, are intelligent people with a love of storycrafting. If you just start leading them in the right direction, they may come to discoveries about their own RP themselves. Like many of us did. Ask them about their character, their motivations, and if they don't make sense, ask more questions. Get THEM to dig deeper.


Earendill: But we're always blunt to you, Rynh. BLUNT LIKE MY MACE OF +3 RP IMPROVEMENT


Rynh: And I improved because of it!


Rynh: Ty Earen-sama-desu <3


Nero: Rynh: I like being blunt, I have often been called in by my piers to be the one to inform someone of their inappropriate behavior.


StarArmy: You want to get the idea across to the person that RP is a collaboration to make a good story that's fun for all the involved player rather than a competition to win at any cost.


Ben: Bluntness has its place, and with some godmoders it's needed. But most are just people who need to dig a little deeper into their own thought process.


Ben: You learn to recognize the difference.


Rynh: Well then, Nero, you have a talent not many people have xP. I personally hate it, though sometimes it needs to be done


Kim: So, we're in a very odd position here, being a Repository of RP, not a specific game... Some people just store their character sheets here and play them elsewhere. Some use our groups feature to fully define a setting, a rule system, and have specific characters apply to join -- some groups/threads include a DM, others are totally freeform. We have an overarching community standard of effort and respect, but the particulars vary widely.

I can imagine that this would be confusing to new members here. We don't want to step on the toes of individual games, or promote a particular style of RP over another, but would the people in this chat like to see an official document on common "global" standards such as god moding?


Nero: Ben's on to something there. It's similar to Socratic questioning. Rather than telling them which way is the right way, ask them questions to lead them to that discovery on their own.


Rubix: I think it could be a good reference when talking to those that are using it Kim.


Ben: Just don't do it around anyone with poison <.<


Dylan: I think so, yes!


Kaji: Or beans


Rynh: I think having some guidelines on what can be considered God-moding could be helpful


GrandFinale: Or atomic bombs.


Ben: I would love to see something like that, outlining some basic standards. A while ago I wrote something like that as a guide for administrators and DMs


Mellute: I have had people critique Bandit many times. She has evolved into a better character for it.


Kim: (Of course, I will be creating a summary of this chat that you can refer to in the meanwhile!) ;)


StarArmy: Link, Ben?


Kim: I second Star Army's request! Show us yer link, Benny Boy!


Nero: A set of definitions for godmoding and all it's subsidiaries will be helpful. Including the premise that all of them are frowned upon would seem handy too.


Rubix: ^_^ Awesomesauce Kim!


Ben: Uuuuuuuuh. Give me a minute.


Earendill: AN INTERFACE OF BEING EXCELLENT! That everyone RPclass should implement.


StarArmy: http://stararmy.com/wiki/doku.php?id=guide:generators My random generators I mentioned earlier. Good for various stuff.


Earendill: every*


Rubix: Thank you Star!


Mellute: After these chats I get a huge urge to just write!


Rubix: I'm digging it Earen.


Ben: Okay this is going to take a while.


StarArmy: I want to make more, especially ones that various RPs can use (not just mine) so they are useful to the community.


StarArmy: Let me know if you have a request.


Kim: No problem, Ben. SO, moving right along! :D

Is there a point at which a community should stop trying to fix a god moder and simply remove them? How much rope do you give someone?


Nero: 50' of hemp rope


Earendill: When they refuse to improve. Or when they really ruin the RP for everyone else and you've been trying for long enough. Or what Nero said.


Kim: Let me make a note of that, Nero.


Mellute: Um. I am not sure.


Dylan: Yes, there is. I tend to think a three strikes you're out works well. If you have clearly explained why it was wrong the first time and had to do multiple times afterwards? As well as tried to fix it? The person needs to be removed. It doesn't need to be permanent but it stresses the importance of the situation.


Kim: Earendill: What is "long enough"?


Rynh: The good ol' three strikes, I say. When someone makes the same mistake over and over again after being warned for each offence, it's time to get the ol' kickin' boot out.


Ben: Just enough rope to hang themselves with.


Rubix: I'd say when the community as a whole is fed up.


StarArmy: There comes a point where after you've confronted someone multiple times because their behavior is a detriment to the community where you may have to exclude them. Banning is always a last resort hopefully but it may be your only way to get the point across.


Mellute: I'm.....all out of Mountain Dew...


Rynh: This just took a gruesome turn o.o


Kaji: At the point that they become abusive to the people trying to help them, on the shorter and more obvious side. At the longer end of things, when the admin look around and say 'this person halts more RP than they start'.


Gemini: Well, i think we should have it where we should have sections where different rp experiences get together and i guess help each other along, and they have if you want to engage in heaver rps, you would go into the higher levels
if that makes sence


Earendill: Kim: 50'! ;D Or well, that really depends on the situation and the person. It's hard to put a fixed number on it. I once spend 3 months on a particulary bad Mary Sue case (which I fixed in the end!).


Nero: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Three strikes is more than generous enough.


Kim: I'm getting two distinct threads here: 3 strikes, or variable depending on the severity of the situation.


Rynh: Exactly


SeraphicStar: If they don't want to make progress, booting them will save everyone a lot of headaches.

If they do improve, but slowly - well, depends on your patience, really. We are all human after all, sometimes we just have enough of people making the game unfun.


Rynh: Another suitable punishment is forcing them to listen to Justin Bieber until they see the error of their ways.


Kim: Do the three strikers think there is a situation severe enough where you jump to ejecting before three?


GrandFinale: NO! NOT THE BIEBER! IT BUUUUURRRRRRRRRRRRNS!!!!!!


Mellute: I think its up to the discretion of the Admins.


Earendill: YOU MUST BELIEB IN RP!


Nero: It is difficult to justify banning on a first offence, but two major offences can be enough. If they get around to three warning/education/reminders, then it's usually not going to change with more.


GrandFinale: Perhaps, like Mellute said.


Rubix: I honestly think it depends on the infractions.


Kim: We've talked a lot about responsibility, and there's a difference between your responsibility to individuals and your responsibility to a community as a whole. It can be a very blurry line to deal with!


GrandFinale: If they completely derail the RP and make it extremely hard to get back on track and make it interesting again, then it's time for a One Hit K.O.


Dylan: It really depends on what they did. I think they need to be told of the possible consequences from the start. Let's say they godmoded killing a character or destroying a town or something like that. It might then justify removing them, and I suggest temporarily at first, on a second go. I think removing someone after they break the rules once is harsh.


Nero: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. It's not that complicated.


Earendill: Wise words, Mister Spock.


Mellute: I get asked similar questions in many of my teaching method classes. Different context but same point. It depends on the situation, severity and frequency.


Kim: Nero: But you are a giant robotic vader head. The rest of us get all mixed up in squishy feelings and wanting to help. ;)


GrandFinale: I suddenly sense someone sacrificing them self to fix a warp core


Nero: I've been channeling Spock since I was 8. It makes life much, much easier.


GrandFinale: SPORK


Kaji: I think some of the divergence we see here will also be caused by, say, the Furcadia RPers over the Forum ones. In furcadia we generally have the benefit of have all the rules right up front, which can easily constitute as 'warning number one'. Players coming in are expected to know that doing X is against the rules.


Kim: If you encounter a god moder today, would your response to them be different today than it would have been yesterday?


Mellute: Yes. I'd be much nicer about it now.


Rubix: Hmm, probably Kim.


Dylan: Probably the same. :P I might be a bit more patient!


Earendill: Not really. Most ideas thrown into this chat are ones I've heard before, or utilized myself in the past.


Ravdaer: I have a good idea on how to deal with the situation


Kim: Kaji: I don't know if I'd agree with that. Some forums exist inside groups, which have very spelled out rules. And some Furcadian maps do not do a good job of spelling out their rules.


PenGryphon2007: Yes!


Nero: No, but once we have a godmoding guide posted it will be. My response will start including the link to said guide.


SeraphicStar: My patience is still not saintly, but I will maybe try a little harder.


Kim: So Nero, I'm hearing your response won't change today, but it will tomorrow. ;)


Earendill: Or a link to Kim being a dinosaur.


Mellute: Hehehe


Ravdaer: Lol


Earendill: If that doesn't change their world, nothing will.


Mellute: OM NOM


Rynh: Needs more lensflare


Kim: Those of you that run groups, either here or elsewhere: Do you have rules posted that clearly cover this? Will you be adding them?


Nero: The last thing I would do with a godmoder is direct them at Kim, she's up to her eyeballs in stuff to do and I love fixing those sorts of people.


GrandFinale: That's why I'm afraid to visit Furc. I'm afraid I could get Vas in, get a storyline going with it's own map and it's going along great with great people...then some self-important Mary Sue beyond redemption comes in, one-shots the dark god himself, and goes on to be a donkey-hole another day.


Earendill: I mean, have you heard about out Admin? She's special. I'm sure she'd be in the top percentage of admins - youngster joey


Rubix: I'm in several, one does/will I believe and the other does not. But we're very lucky to not have had this problem as of yet. :)


Dylan: We do have rules! But I think we will include a clear definition of what god moding is.


Mellute: If I ever get to start up a group here then I will for sure. This is a nice thing about forum writing. I have this ability and I will do so.


Kaji: I don't think we specifically have a page yet that defines God-Moding and Why Is Bad, no.


GrandFinale: I have a group, but no one's in it and I never use it anyways.


Earendill: Kim: Oh yes. At least then they can't use the excuse of not knowing (they should read the rules damn it!)


Kim: GrandFinale: You just need to pick a group there that has clearly defined rules that agree with your philosophy, and good admins/DMs. Just like you need to do the same here, or anywhere else. :)


Ben: Most groups I'm involved with do have very clear rules, and we tend to be rather strict about them. I try my best to be kind to godmoders that are just new, but balancing it with community needs is difficult.


StarArmy: Kim: Yes, we have rules posted that cover this. I do think I'll try to clarify and enhance them soon though, due to this and also a recent comment from a new player that gave feedback on wanting to better know about combat in RPs.


GrandFinale: Kim, I'm sorry, but nothing can avoid the G.I.F.T.


Ravdaer: Slightly NSFW


Kim: Final question! Do you think that designating OOC teachers to greet new players and walk them through the rules personally, even if they are posted elsewhere, is a good practice? How have you seen this implemented previously? If you were greeted by such a group, did it feel good, or were you intimidated?


Ben: In the dream I currently admin on furc, EVERY player who enters gets a personal greeting.


Earendill: Oh yes! A nice example are the Beekins of Furcadia. They do an excellent job of helping newbies.


Kaji: ^


GrandFinale: YES. not everyone will read the rules, and someone needs to set them straight.


Rubix: I don't know if you need designated ooc teachers, I think it should be an inherent part of the community to go out and greet new people.


Ben: We use that personal greeting to get a feeling for them, and it gives us a chance to make sure we know that they've been handed a rules page.


Rynh: I think it might be a good idea to implement them, yes. They actually make new players feel accepted. Like the Beekins in Furcadia, they're not intimidating at all!


Earendill: But when it comes to smaller communities, every member should feel the responsibility to maintain the quality of their community!


Kim: Rubix: How do you encourage/reward that, or prevent the older players from burning out/just wanting to be left alone to RP? ;)


SeraphicStar: I agree with Rubix here.


Kaji: I'm in the same area as Ben; everyone gets greeted, whether there's an immediate problem seen or not. I've heard feedback that it can be a bit scary, but most overall either think nothing of it or like it. Only one or two found it outright offensive.


Dylan: I think if it is possible for the group/groups size that would be nice to see! I've been greeted by staff before but never really given uh.. a package, I suppose of how things work in the group. More often than not a friendly player would inform me after we'd roleplay or got to know one another.


GrandFinale: Do we have a group for the RPR on Furc? I'm considering taking the plunge...


Ben: And we know that people who find "Hi! Welcome" offensive are unlikely to be a good fit, lol


GrandFinale: ...sadly I'm not a great aritst, so making sprites and stuff for my characters would be difficult.


Kim: GrandFinale: There are dozens of Furcadian groups that use the RPR to host their setting information, etc.


GrandFinale: *artist


GrandFinale: no, I meant a group for the members only.


Nero: The method I am most familiar with is the newbie channel. New players can ask questions and experienced players who choose to pay attention to the channel/forum/whatever can offer assistance on points they feel qualified to assist with.


Kim: That's a good point, Ben! People who dislike being welcomed into a community are probably not a great fit for any community.


Ravdaer: I've never been to/used Furc, what is it, exactly?


Earendill: GrandFinale: Furc has default avatars and everything else is the responsibility of the dream owner (except for ports)


Rubix: XD Well Kim, sometimes I think older players need to remember what it was like to be new. Occasionally they need a kick in the pants. On one of the groups here my fellow mods and I did a challenge for a week of making introductions. It wasn't for a reward system etc. It was something that we as a group had been neglecting to do and it served as a reminder of how great that felt to receive comments and to give them. I'm proud of that group 90% of the players went out and made comments and they still do!


Kim: GrandFinale: I don't think Furcadian groups really work that way, typically.


Rubix: But what I like to do is keep an open dialogue, always be good to the people around you, and continue to share that "good feeling" with as many as possible.


Kim: Ravdaer: It's a graphical chat room where you can make your own maps and patch everything to look how you want, so you can run almost any kind of RP through it and have "game pieces" to move around and see where everyone is. They default to anthropomorphic characters, but you can get anything going.


Ben: GrandFinale: We would welcome you to our group. Not everyone in it is RPR but it's a good community.


Ravdaer: Ohh, sounds a little confusing, making maps..


StarArmy: Kim: We don't have designated teachers but we try to make ourselves available in chat 24/7 and I post my phone number on the site and in the chatroom for people with questions. We also have a "Your Questions Answered" forum new people to ask questions for the community to answer and a new players' guide that explains how the site and RP works.


GrandFinale: Would they welcome a universe-shattering Eldritch Abomination forged from primordial darkness?


GrandFinale: * @Ben


Ben: Errrr.... Probably not. <.<


Kim: Wow, StarArmy. Posting your phone number on the internet is bold! ;)

(For those that don't know, the RPR has a tech support phone line listed in the help files, too, though it's not typically for RP help!)


Ben: We've already got one :D


Rubix: (Totally didn't know that Kim!)


Kaji: We could do with a barber, though. And a general store clerk. :D


Vastator Inanimentum (played by GrandFinale): "I find myself fascinated."


Rubix: (Do we have to speak dinosaur to get support? ;) )


GrandFinale: SHUT UP, YA EVIL BUTTWAD


GrandFinale: *not at Rubix


Rubix: LOL Grand. <3


Rynh: ARRROAAAOORRROOO


Rynh: O well I tried


Nero: Grandfinale, I'm not sure arguing with yourself is productive to this discussion.


Kim: Speaking of barbers and general store clerks: Next week our topic is "The joy of being normal", or how to design "average" characters that are still exciting to play and to play with. I hope to see you all there, I think it's going to be really fun.


StarArmy: Kim: I use a Google Voice number so I can filter calls to certain hours and have different phones ring at different times. It also has spam blocking and other great features. And it's free.


Earendill: Unless his character has excellent points to make!


GrandFinale: It's not, I'm just being strange.


Rubix: Oh cool Kim!


SeraphicStar: Can't wait for that!


Ravdaer: When is next discussion?


Kim: StarArmy: Us, too! :D


Mellute: I just made a normal character! Hehe


Kim: Next discussion is next Saturday at the same time, same place. :)


PenGryphon2007: Nice! *looks at character list* Uhhh, right, normal...


Ravdaer: Alright~


Kim: I actually even created a facebook event for it, for those of you that follow us there.


GrandFinale: DON'T LEAVE US, KIM!


StarArmy: I like how you can pick your number. My Star Army phone number is 209-STAR-ARMY (209-782-7276).


Ben: Bah, I'm sure I posted my thing on the furc forums, but all the topics have dissappeared :(


Ravdaer: I missed the first two.. .___.


Earendill: DOES RPR TECH SUPPORT HAVE EXCELLENT INDIAN ACCENTS?


Rubix: Awesomesauce Kim!


Earendill: (And I do follow the RPR on Fb!)


Gemini: Ill try to see if i can make it again


Ben: Is there any way to get at topics that have been wiped off the furc forums?


Ravdaer: I can do an excellent accent, ahah


Kim: Earendill: I can fake one for you, but it's going to be atrocious.


Kim: No idea, Ben.


StarArmy: Next topic sounds great and is something I am very interested in and relevant to me. I'll definitely try to make it.


Earendill: That's okay Kim. I speak dinosaurian


Kim: We'll look forward to having you, StarArmy! :D


Kim: I'm very excited to see all of you again next week, I know the people here are going to have some great perspectives.


Nero: But can you write Saurian too Earendill?


Mellute: I'll be there as well!


Ravdaer: I'll be here for sure


PenGryphon2007: :D I always learn so much from these discussions.


Ravdaer: What were the first two about?


Earendill: Nero: Excellent point. I can, sort of. My grammer is way off though. Never know when to do RAWR RAAWR ROWRRRAAAAA or DSFSDFQQLJLQMDSJFQSJFL


GrandFinale: Also, random for everyone: http://www.rrrrthats5rs.com/games/dont-shoot-the-puppy/


Nero: There are some rather handy summaries for the other two discussions


Earendill: NEVER AGAIN. That game...all the frustrations.


Kim: Rav: Here's a summary of the first one

And here's a summary of the second one


Ben: If I find that thing I wrote about administrating I'll post it on the forums here :)


Ravdaer: Thanks :3


Ben: Probably in RP discussion.


Nero: Earendill: I was referencing the arrow pairs for letter conversions into Saurian, because their scribes write with chicken-feet rather than pens.


Kim: And I'll have a summary of this one up sometime tomorrow, for those of you interested in linking to it or using it as a resource. :)


Part 1 - Part 2 - Part 3