Cheese, Cheesing: A strategy or a way of playing a game that provides the means for a player to overcome a difficult situation or boss fight with little to no difficulty, not by engaging with the challenge, but rather, bypassing the entire problem all together magically.
I don't know if this is the correct terminology, I just saw someone on google using this expression to describe something commonly found in role playing (and not just gaming) that is quite irritating.
It's basically when the story isn't favoring your character, things aren't in your favor or when your character is losing the fight badly. But instead of just powering through the problem in a way that matches the story, you SUDDENLY bring out a fact, rule, secret or twist that has never been mentioned or even hinted prior to that, purely just so you could bypass the unfavorable situation or so you wouldn't lose. Mind, this isn't like having plot twists or secret plots, this is something very different.
Example: "Azazel and Andrea fought for three days and three nights at the top of a hill. Azazel's angelic powers were far superior to Andrea who is but a mere mortal, so victory was easy.... However, Andrea did poison Azazel's tea earlier, so he suddenly dropped dead and she won the fight.
Just imagine your OC is Azazel and your partner's is Andrea, but they never wrote anything about the poison, they never even hinted it in the story at all. It's completely out of nowhere, completely random, there is not one scene earlier that insinuated Andrea had any poison on her. They just put that there to save themselves.
Another example: "Percy caught his girlfriend Maria seeing another man, he became heartbroken and left her. He couldn't believe that he was so blinded by love.... But wait, Maria actually possess evidence that Percy cheated on her first! He's been cheating this whole entire time!"
Imagine you're role playing a romantic, slice of life story, and your OC is Percy, and theirs is Maria. You've never discussed Percy cheating, it was never even brought up before in the story whatsoever. Your RP partner just decided to wedge that into the story to save Maria, and make her look better, even though it's completely random and out of nowhere, and extremely uncharacteristic of Percy.
Third example: "Hunter Derek is chasing after the vampire Leon, and the hunter fired rounds and rounds of bullets on the dark creature... Leon got up and went back to his castle for a nap."
This is a third type, they don't want to see their character in a difficult situation, they know they will lose the fight... so they just skip over it completely in a way that doesn't really make sense at all. Okay, maybe they don't want to role play anything too violent or confrontational, but they never really said that, and every little plot point was leading up to that fight scene. When they lost, they decided to just breeze through it without even consulting you first.
I was wondering if anyone else has dealt with this situation before, luckily this has only happened a few times, and never often, but I still get pretty irritating when it happens. Is there a way to deal with this without sounding very confrontational or demanding?
I don't know if this is the correct terminology, I just saw someone on google using this expression to describe something commonly found in role playing (and not just gaming) that is quite irritating.
It's basically when the story isn't favoring your character, things aren't in your favor or when your character is losing the fight badly. But instead of just powering through the problem in a way that matches the story, you SUDDENLY bring out a fact, rule, secret or twist that has never been mentioned or even hinted prior to that, purely just so you could bypass the unfavorable situation or so you wouldn't lose. Mind, this isn't like having plot twists or secret plots, this is something very different.
Example: "Azazel and Andrea fought for three days and three nights at the top of a hill. Azazel's angelic powers were far superior to Andrea who is but a mere mortal, so victory was easy.... However, Andrea did poison Azazel's tea earlier, so he suddenly dropped dead and she won the fight.
Just imagine your OC is Azazel and your partner's is Andrea, but they never wrote anything about the poison, they never even hinted it in the story at all. It's completely out of nowhere, completely random, there is not one scene earlier that insinuated Andrea had any poison on her. They just put that there to save themselves.
Another example: "Percy caught his girlfriend Maria seeing another man, he became heartbroken and left her. He couldn't believe that he was so blinded by love.... But wait, Maria actually possess evidence that Percy cheated on her first! He's been cheating this whole entire time!"
Imagine you're role playing a romantic, slice of life story, and your OC is Percy, and theirs is Maria. You've never discussed Percy cheating, it was never even brought up before in the story whatsoever. Your RP partner just decided to wedge that into the story to save Maria, and make her look better, even though it's completely random and out of nowhere, and extremely uncharacteristic of Percy.
Third example: "Hunter Derek is chasing after the vampire Leon, and the hunter fired rounds and rounds of bullets on the dark creature... Leon got up and went back to his castle for a nap."
This is a third type, they don't want to see their character in a difficult situation, they know they will lose the fight... so they just skip over it completely in a way that doesn't really make sense at all. Okay, maybe they don't want to role play anything too violent or confrontational, but they never really said that, and every little plot point was leading up to that fight scene. When they lost, they decided to just breeze through it without even consulting you first.
I was wondering if anyone else has dealt with this situation before, luckily this has only happened a few times, and never often, but I still get pretty irritating when it happens. Is there a way to deal with this without sounding very confrontational or demanding?
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Is there a way to deal with this without sounding very confrontational or demanding?
It's best to be up front about it when it happens, in a neutral way and asking to not include that in the story.
If it were to happen to me, I'd probably say something like...
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I saw you wrote that character <describe the action>. I'd really prefer to talk about big outcomes like this as a team so we're on the same page as writing partners. This really caught me off guard and I'm not happy with this turn of events, can we talk about it and maybe adjust the story afterwards?
Setting a boundary and asking for teamwork doesn't have to mean it's confrontational or demanding. It also helps to assume good intentions from the other party; they probably didn't even think about it having that kind of impact/have no idea it irritated their partner!
What's important here is to simply share your observation of what happened, and not judge it negatively. It's also important to state your feelings on it without being accusatory, and to invite to come to a solution together. In the follow-up conversation the focus should be on asking what each side wants, and then offering a compromise to settle on.
I know some people prefer keeping things a surprise and don't like plotting everything out in advance, and nobody has to here either. You're really asking for reasonable outcomes to events and to discuss any major plot twists that change the outcome dramatically before it's played out, because this is collaborative writing and some amount of discussion is necessary for everyone to stay happy!
Sanne wrote:
Quote:
Is there a way to deal with this without sounding very confrontational or demanding?
It's best to be up front about it when it happens, in a neutral way and asking to not include that in the story.
If it were to happen to me, I'd probably say something like...
Quote:
I saw you wrote that character <describe the action>. I'd really prefer to talk about big outcomes like this as a team so we're on the same page as writing partners. This really caught me off guard and I'm not happy with this turn of events, can we talk about it and maybe adjust the story afterwards?
Setting a boundary and asking for teamwork doesn't have to mean it's confrontational or demanding. It also helps to assume good intentions from the other party; they probably didn't even think about it having that kind of impact/have no idea it irritated their partner!
What's important here is to simply share your observation of what happened, and not judge it negatively. It's also important to state your feelings on it without being accusatory, and to invite to come to a solution together. In the follow-up conversation the focus should be on asking what each side wants, and then offering a compromise to settle on.
I know some people prefer keeping things a surprise and don't like plotting everything out in advance, and nobody has to here either. You're really asking for reasonable outcomes to events and to discuss any major plot twists that change the outcome dramatically before it's played out, because this is collaborative writing and some amount of discussion is necessary for everyone to stay happy!
Yes, I am always worried about sounding accusatory! I lost a few role plays because I expressed my thoughts and.... stuff just got really awkward after that, then we drifted further apart.
And exactly! I love a good plot twist or reveal, but as you said, as long as the outcome is reasonable and suits the story. Thank you for responding 🧡 feels good to connect with fellow role players
if you are afraid of losing because you are afraid of losing your character, play a faerie because they actually have a lot less harsh consequences for "dying". even then, the loss of a conflict doesn't mean the permadeath of a character even for mortals. capture and new bonds can start, new friendships, etc. for example, you can likely disintegrate Umbrie in a scene, then she is joining you for tea in the next.
So I have not had this happen to me, at least in a VERY long time, but it recently happened to my husband in one of his RPs so I can share with you.
His situation was more like the second example, where they claimed your character did something. My husband contacted them OOC and was like "Hey, my character would never do that, can we please adjust/redo this scene and can you please not claim what my character would do?"
A pre-emptive way to perhaps try to avoid it is by having it in any beginning 'rules' you set with your partner, or in an LFRP ad. Something like 'no godmoding - this includes controlling anything my character does or says, either in the moment or in the past', or something like that.
TBH, I don't know if this sounds harsh, but if someone is doing this in a scene you are better off ending that RP and finding someone better to RP with, because they obviously don't respect you or the RP. And if that's the case, just be upfront with them. Tell them "Hey, I really don't appreciate how you did (X, Y, Z depending on which scenario), I don't think we're a good fit for each other as RP partners."
I totally understand getting frustrated, that would annoy me like crazy and I wouldn't stand for it at all lol.
His situation was more like the second example, where they claimed your character did something. My husband contacted them OOC and was like "Hey, my character would never do that, can we please adjust/redo this scene and can you please not claim what my character would do?"
A pre-emptive way to perhaps try to avoid it is by having it in any beginning 'rules' you set with your partner, or in an LFRP ad. Something like 'no godmoding - this includes controlling anything my character does or says, either in the moment or in the past', or something like that.
TBH, I don't know if this sounds harsh, but if someone is doing this in a scene you are better off ending that RP and finding someone better to RP with, because they obviously don't respect you or the RP. And if that's the case, just be upfront with them. Tell them "Hey, I really don't appreciate how you did (X, Y, Z depending on which scenario), I don't think we're a good fit for each other as RP partners."
I totally understand getting frustrated, that would annoy me like crazy and I wouldn't stand for it at all lol.
Hello there! Fellow rper. I'm intrigued to see someone point out a recurring thing that tends to happen maybe more often than people realize. While I understand this clearly could fall into what can be considered godmodding which is often seen as a bad thing in an rp, I believe the issue is not exactly with Godmodding...but it's execution. Is that character action justified? Does it fit the scene? But most importantly...Do you feel comfortable with it? In my opinion A good rp is not only defined by long detailed post, but if you can make yc and writting style *click* together. Some people will allow such thing as 'cheesing' other's will not and some simply wont care. It all depends on the writter and the trust you have with your writting partner. Are you afraid they will jump off the scene for you pointing out a detail you don't like? Do remember that an rp is for fun...if you stop having fun then there's a problem.
Communication, good comunication is what I think is best to let your writting partner know what you like , what you dislike and also that you enjoy what they are doing! Everytime one of my fellow rpers tell me they like something in particular or that they enjoy my reply it's like a mini kudos from their part! So remember to also let your writting partners know that. No one is perfect, there's no correct way to do an rp, there are indeed practices that are generally frowned but if there's good comunication, enjoyment and consent...well then what's the problem?
In the end I think it all comes down that if you like the rp enough to continue or if you dont. If you like it you should talk to the person and let them know so you can work things out but if you dont then by all means just leave the scene in the most polite way you can.
Communication, good comunication is what I think is best to let your writting partner know what you like , what you dislike and also that you enjoy what they are doing! Everytime one of my fellow rpers tell me they like something in particular or that they enjoy my reply it's like a mini kudos from their part! So remember to also let your writting partners know that. No one is perfect, there's no correct way to do an rp, there are indeed practices that are generally frowned but if there's good comunication, enjoyment and consent...well then what's the problem?
In the end I think it all comes down that if you like the rp enough to continue or if you dont. If you like it you should talk to the person and let them know so you can work things out but if you dont then by all means just leave the scene in the most polite way you can.
communicating intent and asking before revealing a plot twist is also important. and godmodding is too broad a label. i'd consider the 2 examples a combination of aimbotting, baghdad bobbiting, and puppetmastering. which can definitely be bad ettiquette and typically performed by people used to the OC tournament scene. where people pit OCs in 1v1 deathmatches.
aimbotting, also called autohitting or autoing, is when you have something automatically have a predetermined unavoidable uncounterable effect. good examples are magic missile in D&D and Super Polymerization in Yugioh. the former being a weak auto hit attack, the latter being a means to clear your opponents board and bypass immunities. aimbotting in RP is usually used to force that crippling blow that enables Victory.
Baghdad Bobbiting, as defined by Oxymoron02 of Gaia online in the early 2000's, refers to a specific combo of Aimbotting and Puppetmastering where you get tired of a fair fight and do some instant uncounterable move that wins you the fight by death or incapacitation. typically seemingly spontaneous but quite easy to predict, because the Baghdad Bobbit, named after infamous Rightfully Vengeful Desert Storm Survivors from a Historic event in the early 2000's. are easy to spot and predict, because like a reaper style boss in a video game, they will save thier "take you with me" mechanic for when they are losing, outmatched and outgunned. i beleive the Munch could be renamed.
Puppetmastering is when you hijack another player's character and have them do things they aren't established to do, whether likely or not, without some form of hyponosis at the very least.
IDKFA is another relevant munch that applies here. that cheesy spy novel hero who is never out of ammo or resources and hides 24 messergranz throwing daggers in her garters. such a trope can be used for comedic effect or in the right story. but unless your character concept is a youthful SFW rendition of a femme fatale, an Assassin like Riddick, or someone like Senjogahara, i don't expect you to be killing people with coffee mugs to the heart or pencils to the eye. IDKFAs won't stop there, they are literally impossible to truly disarm, and you will easily spot that through play when the assassin peels off her 7th petticoat and reveals 24 more daggers and 2 more autopistols just like the last 6 petticoats.
munching isn't the bad part. knowing that munching by itself isn't good ettiquette and remembering to ask before plot twists helps improve it.
aimbotting, also called autohitting or autoing, is when you have something automatically have a predetermined unavoidable uncounterable effect. good examples are magic missile in D&D and Super Polymerization in Yugioh. the former being a weak auto hit attack, the latter being a means to clear your opponents board and bypass immunities. aimbotting in RP is usually used to force that crippling blow that enables Victory.
Baghdad Bobbiting, as defined by Oxymoron02 of Gaia online in the early 2000's, refers to a specific combo of Aimbotting and Puppetmastering where you get tired of a fair fight and do some instant uncounterable move that wins you the fight by death or incapacitation. typically seemingly spontaneous but quite easy to predict, because the Baghdad Bobbit, named after infamous Rightfully Vengeful Desert Storm Survivors from a Historic event in the early 2000's. are easy to spot and predict, because like a reaper style boss in a video game, they will save thier "take you with me" mechanic for when they are losing, outmatched and outgunned. i beleive the Munch could be renamed.
Puppetmastering is when you hijack another player's character and have them do things they aren't established to do, whether likely or not, without some form of hyponosis at the very least.
IDKFA is another relevant munch that applies here. that cheesy spy novel hero who is never out of ammo or resources and hides 24 messergranz throwing daggers in her garters. such a trope can be used for comedic effect or in the right story. but unless your character concept is a youthful SFW rendition of a femme fatale, an Assassin like Riddick, or someone like Senjogahara, i don't expect you to be killing people with coffee mugs to the heart or pencils to the eye. IDKFAs won't stop there, they are literally impossible to truly disarm, and you will easily spot that through play when the assassin peels off her 7th petticoat and reveals 24 more daggers and 2 more autopistols just like the last 6 petticoats.
munching isn't the bad part. knowing that munching by itself isn't good ettiquette and remembering to ask before plot twists helps improve it.
So this isn't a solution for cheeseing in movies and in video games against strangers or anything but from all your examples it looks like the solution in RP is not allowing godmodding and making that clear upfront.
I've had people try to pull theses kinds of twists on me and just stopped the RP to talk to them. If they understood why it's not okay to make choices for another players character or overall control another players character without consent then we can retcon the post and move forward. If not well, the RP ends there.
To people who don't often speak up about things that bother them sometimes it seems like saying anything will be confrontational but as long as a person remains polite it isn't often seen as aggressive or uncalled for.
If someone tries to pull the switcheroo of "It's not my fault you have a problem with it" (something I've had to deal with a time or two) it's time to pack it in and call it a day. RP is supposed to be fun and ultimately if a player your writing with makes you feel like you can't advocate for yourself it's okay to walk away.
In the third example, while I know the example leaves out a lot, it seems to show a great instance of assumptions that players make about other players. In this it assumes Leon's player didn't want their character in harms way while it also suggest that Hunter Derek is calling the shots in a near godmodding way. It feels presumptuous to assume one side would for sure win the fight unless agreed on ahead of time which wasn't stated in the example. And though it's sad that Leon's writer in this example skipped over what could feel like important character building RP if that were happening IRL I would guess this is a reaction from Leon's writer in regards to not having a say whether or not Leon was going to lose. Which is an important etiquette when it comes to phrasing in a post.
Imagine being Leon's writer and seeing Derek's writer saying in their post "this for sure happened." Which can be equally as frustrating as feeling like your characters actions are ignored. In this it could be less that Leon's writer didn't want their character put in danger and more that they chose to exit because they felt like their player agency was being taken away.
1) "Derek fired rounds and rounds of bullets into the dark creature."
Vs
2) "Derek fires at dark creature, aiming to pierce his undead heart and hoping his aim is true."
The first assumes Leon has been hit, the second allowing Leon's writer to determine if the rounds actually found their target.
I'd talk to the other player about the situation using "I feel" statements such as "I feel there was more interaction that could have happened in the scene. May I ask if there was a reason Leon left so abruptly?" Hear their side of things and figure out if it was a miscommunication or if your RP styles are incompatible.
In the third example it could be exactly as stated, that they didn't want their character in danger, but also opens up the possibility that there is more going on. Proving that communication between players is paramount.
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In video games: Any form of cheating by automatic hits and controlling another player's character implemented by installing a mod in the game.
In RP: Godmodding is taking control of another player's character during roleplay.
In RP: Godmodding is taking control of another player's character during roleplay.
I've had people try to pull theses kinds of twists on me and just stopped the RP to talk to them. If they understood why it's not okay to make choices for another players character or overall control another players character without consent then we can retcon the post and move forward. If not well, the RP ends there.
To people who don't often speak up about things that bother them sometimes it seems like saying anything will be confrontational but as long as a person remains polite it isn't often seen as aggressive or uncalled for.
If someone tries to pull the switcheroo of "It's not my fault you have a problem with it" (something I've had to deal with a time or two) it's time to pack it in and call it a day. RP is supposed to be fun and ultimately if a player your writing with makes you feel like you can't advocate for yourself it's okay to walk away.
In the third example, while I know the example leaves out a lot, it seems to show a great instance of assumptions that players make about other players. In this it assumes Leon's player didn't want their character in harms way while it also suggest that Hunter Derek is calling the shots in a near godmodding way. It feels presumptuous to assume one side would for sure win the fight unless agreed on ahead of time which wasn't stated in the example. And though it's sad that Leon's writer in this example skipped over what could feel like important character building RP if that were happening IRL I would guess this is a reaction from Leon's writer in regards to not having a say whether or not Leon was going to lose. Which is an important etiquette when it comes to phrasing in a post.
Imagine being Leon's writer and seeing Derek's writer saying in their post "this for sure happened." Which can be equally as frustrating as feeling like your characters actions are ignored. In this it could be less that Leon's writer didn't want their character put in danger and more that they chose to exit because they felt like their player agency was being taken away.
1) "Derek fired rounds and rounds of bullets into the dark creature."
Vs
2) "Derek fires at dark creature, aiming to pierce his undead heart and hoping his aim is true."
The first assumes Leon has been hit, the second allowing Leon's writer to determine if the rounds actually found their target.
I'd talk to the other player about the situation using "I feel" statements such as "I feel there was more interaction that could have happened in the scene. May I ask if there was a reason Leon left so abruptly?" Hear their side of things and figure out if it was a miscommunication or if your RP styles are incompatible.
In the third example it could be exactly as stated, that they didn't want their character in danger, but also opens up the possibility that there is more going on. Proving that communication between players is paramount.
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