(Since it has happened a few times already, please, if you refer to me, I am they/their pronouns. Thanks!)
As an incredibly large website full of roleplayers from around the world, of all ages, this was bound to become a problem: rampant art theft, often not even understood to be precisely that. This is a conversation we as a community often have put on the backburner or ignored outright, outside of the friends groups of individual artists, or individuals who have taken notice. For the most part, the majority of people on this site aren’t artists and have, more or less, grown up on an internet that told them, ‘assume free to use until told otherwise, if at all!’ - as in, most people have every reason to assume they can just use whatever they want, because no one’s ever told them otherwise, or they’ve never put tons of work into their own art just to have it stolen, so they have no first-hand experience. Let alone had conversations on the legality or morality of it!
And...well, that’s what I’m here to do, right here. I’ve been seeing art theft left and right. It breaks my heart, it really does. As an artist who works hard to get what commissions and the money from said commissions I do get, as an artist who is well aware of the devaluing of art at large, it breaks my heart to see how common and normalized art theft is, especially here, on RPR, a community I may not show my face on a lot, but that I hold quite dear.
Let’s start off with a couple of examples… (Please note, I have used my own art, and my own photos of myself - but, if you will, look at these ‘screenshots’ as if they were someone else’s RPR gallery entirely!)
Here we have someone using art of, say, my character - something I drew for myself, that I do not give anyone else permission to use, that I hold the copyright of. But this could be almost anything else - someone commissioned this art, or it was a gift - but, there is one thing that remains the same, regardless: This was not made for this person to use, nor were they given permission to use it! This is art theft.
Something I see happening on RPR (and, well, many other places!) are people - if not leaving ‘credit’ blank or claiming it as their own - trying to excuse their theft by saying ‘credit to the artist’ and disclaiming ownership. But it just doesn’t work that way! It’s still theft! While I’m glad people are honest that it is not theirs, I’d be much happier if they simply didn’t do it!
In the same thread, it should be obvious also that claiming the art as, indeed, yours, or simply saying nothing… is still theft!
Here is another common example, one that is far more pervasive on RPR in particular - the Faceclaim.
You click on someone’s character profile, find their gallery - and it’s nothing but photos of a real, live person! This is a very nuanced topic, but this particular example is: taking personal photos someone has posted online, without permission, and basing your entire character around these images.
‘This is what Morgan looks like when their hair is in a mohawk’ ‘but sometimes, they like to shave their hair!’ ‘Morgan’s smile.’ ‘Selfie!!’
These are all photos of some stranger on the internet, who has not consented to this. Not only is it illegal - as someone using these photos doesn’t have the copyright or permission - but it is also morally reprehensible! I know I made this photoset as an example in my own article, but my skin crawls at the thought of someone basing a RP character around me! And it only gets worse when the character is blatantly intended for sexual content. Yes, I have seen this happen, and it is just as creepy as you’d expect.
Since we are on the topic of the Faceclaim…
What is the difference between a Faceclaim and Reference?
Using Toreth’s definition of Faceclaim - that this is precisely the character meant to be depicted, barring minor detail changes.
Then, what is reference? Reference, in general, is something gathered in order to commission an artist for work of a character with no current artwork.
So now that we’ve covered major examples of art theft, let’s talk about the finer points.
I play a canon character (canon defined as in from a TV show, book, movie, game, etc), is it art theft if I use official images?
This is where research comes in. Does this canon, this franchise, etc, encourage fans to use their official work for non-profit purposes? If they do, and you’re not claiming the art as your own, it should be smooth sailing! If they do not (Say, Dragonriders of Pern of old, where they’d actively take legal action against even RPers not even using their images but only their content), then yes, yes it is! Not only is it theft, but it could also bring legal action against the RPR itself!
Okay, so, what about using all this fanart of the canon characters?
Do you have permission? Does the fanart creator allow free use of their art? If both of these answers are no, then that is art theft. It may not be their character that they’ve drawn, but it is their art.
My character looks just like this! I’m going to use their image and credit the artist!
This has been covered - Do you have permission? No? It is art theft, regardless of if you credit the artist or not.
When can I use photos/art that I didn’t commission and weren’t done for me?
There is a plethora of art out there that has been made for non-profit use! Art dolls, bases, pieces of art given freely to whoever wants to use it, photos labeled for stock use - all of this is out there, all of it can be used, within the terms of its licensing!
When you are looking for art - drawings, photos - to use, check to make sure that the artist has stated you can use it! If the permissions to use the work is within the realm of what you need it for, be sure then to also credit the artist.
I don’t want to commission art! It’s too expensive! I shouldn’t have to pay! / Other variations of this sentiment
What would you say if I told you that the vast majority of artists you are going to run into here on the RPR (And in most other freelance situations open to personal commissions like character art) - that these artists are, by and large, VASTLY underselling themselves? That, almost to a one, if you took the hours they spend on each piece and the price someone paid for it, the hourly wage you work out from that is well below the minimum wage of the USA?
The art isn’t expensive. In fact, I’d highly encourage everyone that, if they commission art, to tip their artists. But, as much as the above needs to be said, my point here is: Just because you don’t want to or can’t pay for it, doesn’t mean you can just take it. That is theft.
How do I credit an artist?
How does the artist advertise or sign their art, what is their main gallery? I, for example, ask my commissioners to credit me as ‘Masha Tate’ or ‘mashatate.deviantart.com’. Linking to their gallery, their profile, writing their name out, all are likely to be a valid way to credit the artist. ‘By Masha Tate’, ‘By alluvial.deviantart.com’, ‘created on icongenerator.com’. If you’re not sure and you can contact the artist directly, ask!
RESOURCES
Further Resources
On copyrights
Official RPR post regarding art theft
Tutorials for drawing your own art!
The Gallery - A RPR group dedicated to the artistic community! Share art, get critique and suggestions, grow as an artist! They also have many, many resources listed for growing your art skills!
Did you know, Google allows you to search for images you may use for your RP sites?
50 free stock image sites
And once more, remember, once you have permission to use the art - be it automatically given like an art doll, or from an individual art - CREDIT YOUR ARTIST!
Love RPR and its artists? Consider supporting them through donations through Patreon and otherwise!
If I’ve missed your patreon, etc?, lemme know!
Alluvial/Corvus’s Patreon!
Buy Guttergoo a cup of coffee! & Guttergoo’s Patreon!
MadRatBird’s Patreon!
As an incredibly large website full of roleplayers from around the world, of all ages, this was bound to become a problem: rampant art theft, often not even understood to be precisely that. This is a conversation we as a community often have put on the backburner or ignored outright, outside of the friends groups of individual artists, or individuals who have taken notice. For the most part, the majority of people on this site aren’t artists and have, more or less, grown up on an internet that told them, ‘assume free to use until told otherwise, if at all!’ - as in, most people have every reason to assume they can just use whatever they want, because no one’s ever told them otherwise, or they’ve never put tons of work into their own art just to have it stolen, so they have no first-hand experience. Let alone had conversations on the legality or morality of it!
And...well, that’s what I’m here to do, right here. I’ve been seeing art theft left and right. It breaks my heart, it really does. As an artist who works hard to get what commissions and the money from said commissions I do get, as an artist who is well aware of the devaluing of art at large, it breaks my heart to see how common and normalized art theft is, especially here, on RPR, a community I may not show my face on a lot, but that I hold quite dear.
Let’s start off with a couple of examples… (Please note, I have used my own art, and my own photos of myself - but, if you will, look at these ‘screenshots’ as if they were someone else’s RPR gallery entirely!)
Here we have someone using art of, say, my character - something I drew for myself, that I do not give anyone else permission to use, that I hold the copyright of. But this could be almost anything else - someone commissioned this art, or it was a gift - but, there is one thing that remains the same, regardless: This was not made for this person to use, nor were they given permission to use it! This is art theft.
Something I see happening on RPR (and, well, many other places!) are people - if not leaving ‘credit’ blank or claiming it as their own - trying to excuse their theft by saying ‘credit to the artist’ and disclaiming ownership. But it just doesn’t work that way! It’s still theft! While I’m glad people are honest that it is not theirs, I’d be much happier if they simply didn’t do it!
In the same thread, it should be obvious also that claiming the art as, indeed, yours, or simply saying nothing… is still theft!
Here is another common example, one that is far more pervasive on RPR in particular - the Faceclaim.
You click on someone’s character profile, find their gallery - and it’s nothing but photos of a real, live person! This is a very nuanced topic, but this particular example is: taking personal photos someone has posted online, without permission, and basing your entire character around these images.
‘This is what Morgan looks like when their hair is in a mohawk’ ‘but sometimes, they like to shave their hair!’ ‘Morgan’s smile.’ ‘Selfie!!’
These are all photos of some stranger on the internet, who has not consented to this. Not only is it illegal - as someone using these photos doesn’t have the copyright or permission - but it is also morally reprehensible! I know I made this photoset as an example in my own article, but my skin crawls at the thought of someone basing a RP character around me! And it only gets worse when the character is blatantly intended for sexual content. Yes, I have seen this happen, and it is just as creepy as you’d expect.
Since we are on the topic of the Faceclaim…
What is the difference between a Faceclaim and Reference?
Tailbone wrote:
I think there's a distinct difference between using photographs for referential material - especially when it comes to assisting artists - and outright claiming the appearance of an individual to the point where you're using photographs to represent rather than reference them. These are very much different things!
Toreth wrote:
I don't think the use of photos as references for artwork/commissions aligns with popular definitions of "faceclaim". I've always interpreted it to mean "my character looks exactly or almost exactly like this barring very minor changes in colour/details", and "I use pictures of this person to represent my character". Per that definition, the use of FCs should be permissible if (1) all of the photos/artwork you use are free for public use, and (2) you include a disclaimer that your representation of this character does not in any way relate to the actual person/character depicted. (This second clause is pretty standard when it comes to "fan works", in my experience -- fanfiction, fan art, etc. I don't particularly care if fanfiction writers want to creatively express their interpretations of other people's characters -- so long as they make it clear what the boundaries are.)
Using Toreth’s definition of Faceclaim - that this is precisely the character meant to be depicted, barring minor detail changes.
Then, what is reference? Reference, in general, is something gathered in order to commission an artist for work of a character with no current artwork.
In the case of my own commissions - this particular example is from a piece Tailbone purchased from me -, it’s often looked like this:
Resulting in this:
Here, you can very clearly see the difference between a faceclaim (example being the photos of myself - other examples are photos of many people who look similar), and reference (bits and pieces picked from many photos to direct an artist to put together an entire piece).
Something that needs pointed out about references is that, in general, this is a private matter between artist and client. As I’m using those photos in an educational manner, that falls under fair use, but posting them in your gallery like such, without permission, would indeed be theft. Here is another (semi-NSFW) example of what referencing looks like. Again, please note that this isn’t being used in someone’s gallery, and is instead being used as an artists’ tool.
Resulting in this:
Here, you can very clearly see the difference between a faceclaim (example being the photos of myself - other examples are photos of many people who look similar), and reference (bits and pieces picked from many photos to direct an artist to put together an entire piece).
Something that needs pointed out about references is that, in general, this is a private matter between artist and client. As I’m using those photos in an educational manner, that falls under fair use, but posting them in your gallery like such, without permission, would indeed be theft. Here is another (semi-NSFW) example of what referencing looks like. Again, please note that this isn’t being used in someone’s gallery, and is instead being used as an artists’ tool.
So now that we’ve covered major examples of art theft, let’s talk about the finer points.
I play a canon character (canon defined as in from a TV show, book, movie, game, etc), is it art theft if I use official images?
This is where research comes in. Does this canon, this franchise, etc, encourage fans to use their official work for non-profit purposes? If they do, and you’re not claiming the art as your own, it should be smooth sailing! If they do not (Say, Dragonriders of Pern of old, where they’d actively take legal action against even RPers not even using their images but only their content), then yes, yes it is! Not only is it theft, but it could also bring legal action against the RPR itself!
Okay, so, what about using all this fanart of the canon characters?
Do you have permission? Does the fanart creator allow free use of their art? If both of these answers are no, then that is art theft. It may not be their character that they’ve drawn, but it is their art.
My character looks just like this! I’m going to use their image and credit the artist!
This has been covered - Do you have permission? No? It is art theft, regardless of if you credit the artist or not.
When can I use photos/art that I didn’t commission and weren’t done for me?
There is a plethora of art out there that has been made for non-profit use! Art dolls, bases, pieces of art given freely to whoever wants to use it, photos labeled for stock use - all of this is out there, all of it can be used, within the terms of its licensing!
When you are looking for art - drawings, photos - to use, check to make sure that the artist has stated you can use it! If the permissions to use the work is within the realm of what you need it for, be sure then to also credit the artist.
I don’t want to commission art! It’s too expensive! I shouldn’t have to pay! / Other variations of this sentiment
What would you say if I told you that the vast majority of artists you are going to run into here on the RPR (And in most other freelance situations open to personal commissions like character art) - that these artists are, by and large, VASTLY underselling themselves? That, almost to a one, if you took the hours they spend on each piece and the price someone paid for it, the hourly wage you work out from that is well below the minimum wage of the USA?
The art isn’t expensive. In fact, I’d highly encourage everyone that, if they commission art, to tip their artists. But, as much as the above needs to be said, my point here is: Just because you don’t want to or can’t pay for it, doesn’t mean you can just take it. That is theft.
How do I credit an artist?
How does the artist advertise or sign their art, what is their main gallery? I, for example, ask my commissioners to credit me as ‘Masha Tate’ or ‘mashatate.deviantart.com’. Linking to their gallery, their profile, writing their name out, all are likely to be a valid way to credit the artist. ‘By Masha Tate’, ‘By alluvial.deviantart.com’, ‘created on icongenerator.com’. If you’re not sure and you can contact the artist directly, ask!
RESOURCES
Below I have gathered - and will continue to gather (please, leave links in the comments to helpful resources - free art threads, doll makers, RPR artists to commission, etc) - resources to help you have art for your character that is legal.
Free art threads!
Lazy's Free Art thread!
Free Furcadia Ports!
Staggering amounts of free art threads on the FurAffinity forums
(Currently on RPR not many active free art threads - but literally, go anywhere, you'll find them. Deviantart, gaiaonline, flightrising - and even if they're not free, they often accept in-game money which, in reality, is still free, unless you purchased said in-game currencies!)
Design adoptables!
Startdoll's thread
Gembone's thread
Sphynx's Adopts
Trishields' adopts
Unicorn's thread
Dawg's thread
Premade Furc Ports for sale!
FreeJayFly’s Adopts!
Madiswain often has delectable adoptables!
Adopts out the wazoo!!!
Commissionable Artists!
f0x1nth3b0x's Commission Thread
Gembone’s Commissions
Sphynx's commissions
Trishields' commissions
Evilduckie227's thread
Alluvial/Corvus is almost always taking commissions, and works super well with photo refs!
I'd kill to catch one of Hooke's commissions
I myself have gotten art from Toreth for Trivantis - WONDERFUL art!
I don't know if Sashetha is open for commission, but they take trades!
I'm fairly certain Guttergoo has arted for a quarter of this very site
MadRatBird's Commissions
Moltenchier’s Commissions]
Tate's Commissions
Danielle Claire’s Commissions]
Fang takes commissions
Claine possibly takes commissions? They’ve cute art!
Madiswain does commissions and trades!
FreeJayFly’s Commissions
Commission info for days! (This is from a DeviantArt group and does not guarantee you a local-to-RPR artist)
ART DOLLS!
Doll Divine - holy cow, just SO MUCH STUFF
Azaleasdolls
Icon Generators dot net - this is a GODSEND
Rinmaru
Dream - I've used this one before, myself! It's AWESOME!
BASES!!!
Sphynx's bases - pay-per-use
Literally this entire section of DeviantArt is dedicated to resources - just BE SURE TO CHECK THE TERMS OF USE! But seriously look at this section on linearts and bases!! Again, CHECK TERMS OF USE.
Armour Gens here
Lazy's Free Art thread!
Free Furcadia Ports!
Staggering amounts of free art threads on the FurAffinity forums
(Currently on RPR not many active free art threads - but literally, go anywhere, you'll find them. Deviantart, gaiaonline, flightrising - and even if they're not free, they often accept in-game money which, in reality, is still free, unless you purchased said in-game currencies!)
Design adoptables!
Startdoll's thread
Gembone's thread
Sphynx's Adopts
Trishields' adopts
Unicorn's thread
Dawg's thread
Premade Furc Ports for sale!
FreeJayFly’s Adopts!
Madiswain often has delectable adoptables!
Adopts out the wazoo!!!
Commissionable Artists!
f0x1nth3b0x's Commission Thread
Gembone’s Commissions
Sphynx's commissions
Trishields' commissions
Evilduckie227's thread
Alluvial/Corvus is almost always taking commissions, and works super well with photo refs!
I'd kill to catch one of Hooke's commissions
I myself have gotten art from Toreth for Trivantis - WONDERFUL art!
I don't know if Sashetha is open for commission, but they take trades!
I'm fairly certain Guttergoo has arted for a quarter of this very site
MadRatBird's Commissions
Moltenchier’s Commissions]
Tate's Commissions
Danielle Claire’s Commissions]
Fang takes commissions
Claine possibly takes commissions? They’ve cute art!
Madiswain does commissions and trades!
FreeJayFly’s Commissions
Commission info for days! (This is from a DeviantArt group and does not guarantee you a local-to-RPR artist)
ART DOLLS!
Doll Divine - holy cow, just SO MUCH STUFF
Azaleasdolls
Icon Generators dot net - this is a GODSEND
Rinmaru
Dream - I've used this one before, myself! It's AWESOME!
BASES!!!
Sphynx's bases - pay-per-use
Literally this entire section of DeviantArt is dedicated to resources - just BE SURE TO CHECK THE TERMS OF USE! But seriously look at this section on linearts and bases!! Again, CHECK TERMS OF USE.
Armour Gens here
sland wrote:
many phenomenal character makers are available for free: just off the top of my head, Black Desert Online, APB Reloaded and EVE Online can all help you get as close to your perfect fantasy/modern/scifi character without having to steal from anyone -- the fine print in the user licenses amounts to "don't try and profit off our work" and is nothing a roleplayer needs to worry about.
Further Resources
On copyrights
Official RPR post regarding art theft
Tutorials for drawing your own art!
The Gallery - A RPR group dedicated to the artistic community! Share art, get critique and suggestions, grow as an artist! They also have many, many resources listed for growing your art skills!
Click for a whole slew of resources on learning to draw and other things!
https://www.pinterest.com/characterdesigh/
http://art-and-sterf.tumblr.com
https://www.pinterest.com/andrewsilke/
https://www.pinterest.com/p8ronella/
https://www.pinterest.com/ellaluiting/
https://www.pinterest.com/jkalile/
https://www.pinterest.com/visualr/
https://www.pinterest.com/katstockton/character-design-inspiration/
https://www.pinterest.com/dockrock81/
http://art-and-sterf.tumblr.com
https://www.pinterest.com/andrewsilke/
https://www.pinterest.com/p8ronella/
https://www.pinterest.com/ellaluiting/
https://www.pinterest.com/jkalile/
https://www.pinterest.com/visualr/
https://www.pinterest.com/katstockton/character-design-inspiration/
https://www.pinterest.com/dockrock81/
Did you know, Google allows you to search for images you may use for your RP sites?
50 free stock image sites
And once more, remember, once you have permission to use the art - be it automatically given like an art doll, or from an individual art - CREDIT YOUR ARTIST!
Love RPR and its artists? Consider supporting them through donations through Patreon and otherwise!
If I’ve missed your patreon, etc?, lemme know!
Alluvial/Corvus’s Patreon!
Buy Guttergoo a cup of coffee! & Guttergoo’s Patreon!
MadRatBird’s Patreon!
As someone new to commissioning, as well as someone with a history of roleplay groups that not only allowed live action face claims but required them, this thread is...interesting for me, but also really useful.
I've tried not to use them anymore for the most part, but I'm glad to know of a better way to get a reference down even without having drawing smarts.
I'm very loose in my opinion on FCs in general, though. But then again, most players I was familiar with would use an actor or Manga character. Not to say those are without copyrights of their own but it's harder to pass off an image from a movie poster as your own work.
I've tried not to use them anymore for the most part, but I'm glad to know of a better way to get a reference down even without having drawing smarts.
I'm very loose in my opinion on FCs in general, though. But then again, most players I was familiar with would use an actor or Manga character. Not to say those are without copyrights of their own but it's harder to pass off an image from a movie poster as your own work.
Well written, informative.
Just removed the last of the stolen art from my characters, which I should have done long ago. If for no other reason than, several of my friends are artists.
Thank you, Tate. Good thread is good.
Just removed the last of the stolen art from my characters, which I should have done long ago. If for no other reason than, several of my friends are artists.
Thank you, Tate. Good thread is good.
Nice thread.
For those with $1500 computers who won't pay $15 for art, it's 2016 and many phenomenal character makers are available for free: just off the top of my head, Black Desert Online, APB Reloaded and EVE Online can all help you get as close to your perfect fantasy/modern/scifi character without having to steal from anyone -- the fine print in the user licenses amounts to "don't try and profit off our work" and is nothing a roleplayer needs to worry about.
I don't think there's too much malice to art theft -- just an evolution of the bad habits we picked up as new roleplayers, like the quantity=quality people who write 10+ paragraphs and then look down their noses at people who don't. I'm sure there'd be less if there were more threads to show there are better ways.
For those with $1500 computers who won't pay $15 for art, it's 2016 and many phenomenal character makers are available for free: just off the top of my head, Black Desert Online, APB Reloaded and EVE Online can all help you get as close to your perfect fantasy/modern/scifi character without having to steal from anyone -- the fine print in the user licenses amounts to "don't try and profit off our work" and is nothing a roleplayer needs to worry about.
I don't think there's too much malice to art theft -- just an evolution of the bad habits we picked up as new roleplayers, like the quantity=quality people who write 10+ paragraphs and then look down their noses at people who don't. I'm sure there'd be less if there were more threads to show there are better ways.
@Sland I quoted you, I hope you don't mind!
@Aethling, I'm glad this helped you
Ah, thank you Tate! I for one, am extremely guilty of using faceclaims and allowing them. One of my biggest reasons is being unable to pay for commisions, nor being able to get my own digital drawing materials. However, this is extremely helpful and I thank you so much!
personally i think it's unreasonable and unfair to expect a large demographic of players to suddenly drop the way they've been roleplaying for years (i do see that you gave many alternatives); it's an increasingly popular trend, especially on places like tumblr, livejournal, gaia etc. and may have a detrimental impact on smaller communities like RPR because if people feel disliked/shunned for how they RP and how they represent their characters they'll just go somewhere they feel accepted.
to be clear, i don't endorse theft or copyright infringement, which is why you should always be under the assumption it's not okay to just post an image you found on google without any forethought. anything copyrighted as no use should not be taken at all.
i've never heard of anyone going to court for using a faceclaim or even being issued a warning to cease and desist, we're talking about a harmless, non-profit use of photos to describe how someone looks; people do not profit from using face claims / references and they're certainly not claiming to be that person or to have taken the pictures themselves (in most cases). this leaves a very grey area legally.
i've seen media experts use other people's photography/content with nothing more than a credit and i can assure you from industry experience this definitely happens (bearing in mind social media experts make posts on behalf of businesses, where profit is involved, so legality is far more crucial). most times they use stock/free images but when they have to discuss people/celebrities they will find a photo and post it (with credit); the way this works is because of the fair use doctrine, which allows for reasonable use as long as the use does not interfere with the owners' rights or impede their right to do with the work/photos as they wish. there are steps a person can take to bolster the fair usage of a photo.
it's a case-by-case basis, but i'd venture a guess most people using face claims aren't interfering with the owners' rights or impeding their right do to with the photos as they wish, so they shouldn't expect a copyright cease and desist any time soon.
this doesn't mean that it's okay for people to assume they save and use anything they want.
honestly i think the smart thing to do is to link directly to the photo source from a thumbnail on your rpr; this way there is greater likelihood of finding fair use than if you just post the original image.
re: morality and the use of the characters who use faceclaims, even if the generalisation is sex, that might just be something you as a person don't approve of; this site itself has an adult's only forum, that endorses a person's right to wholly experience visceral scenarios if they want to, it's a large part of everyday life. even if that person had art, the character usage would still be adult themed -- as long as ample warnings are in place and there's nothing explicit or illegal a person can and will use their character for that. nothing will change that.
to be clear, i don't endorse theft or copyright infringement, which is why you should always be under the assumption it's not okay to just post an image you found on google without any forethought. anything copyrighted as no use should not be taken at all.
i've never heard of anyone going to court for using a faceclaim or even being issued a warning to cease and desist, we're talking about a harmless, non-profit use of photos to describe how someone looks; people do not profit from using face claims / references and they're certainly not claiming to be that person or to have taken the pictures themselves (in most cases). this leaves a very grey area legally.
i've seen media experts use other people's photography/content with nothing more than a credit and i can assure you from industry experience this definitely happens (bearing in mind social media experts make posts on behalf of businesses, where profit is involved, so legality is far more crucial). most times they use stock/free images but when they have to discuss people/celebrities they will find a photo and post it (with credit); the way this works is because of the fair use doctrine, which allows for reasonable use as long as the use does not interfere with the owners' rights or impede their right to do with the work/photos as they wish. there are steps a person can take to bolster the fair usage of a photo.
it's a case-by-case basis, but i'd venture a guess most people using face claims aren't interfering with the owners' rights or impeding their right do to with the photos as they wish, so they shouldn't expect a copyright cease and desist any time soon.
this doesn't mean that it's okay for people to assume they save and use anything they want.
honestly i think the smart thing to do is to link directly to the photo source from a thumbnail on your rpr; this way there is greater likelihood of finding fair use than if you just post the original image.
re: morality and the use of the characters who use faceclaims, even if the generalisation is sex, that might just be something you as a person don't approve of; this site itself has an adult's only forum, that endorses a person's right to wholly experience visceral scenarios if they want to, it's a large part of everyday life. even if that person had art, the character usage would still be adult themed -- as long as ample warnings are in place and there's nothing explicit or illegal a person can and will use their character for that. nothing will change that.
I really appreciate this thread - it's bringing awareness to a nuanced topic of use vs. abuse that is very important to have in creative social circles. Particularly in roleplay communities like RPR, which hinge heavily on trust based group activity and the sharing of creative efforts. It comes full circle as any of us could be on the receiving end of having our own work - or even own appearance - taken for the convenience of another. It certainly seems a matter of etiquette and respect; an acknowledgment of others before being 'merely' a legal matter of copyright. It's that protective copyright that's there to enforce the ethics of acknowledging what isn't yours.
It really does seem to boil down to a lack of awareness combined with bad habits that are unfortunately quite prominent in the roleplay community - it's convenient and offers quick reward. It gives you a visual reference for minimal effort. Plus, so many people are doing it!
I suppose my feelings are reflected in my thoughts on faceclaims - which is a weirdly taboo subject I strongly encourage more discussion over. I personally think it's incredibly reasonable to expect a group of people to cease what they've been doing if it's both ethically and legally questionable. It's entirely irrelevant how long someone has been comfortably practicing thoughtless behavior - that's called 'appeal to tradition' and it's a fallacy. I also have personal thoughts on how it reflects on someone's creative ability and willingness to invest in designing a character, but that's certainly a more subjective topic - however, it most certainly colors my own perceptions. It's not just times when photographs of real people are being used for sexual based roleplay that bothers me - as my quotes suggest, I find it disrespectful of people in general.
It's difficult for me to see the reasoning to use such direct reference rather than having an artist (or character generator) help you design your own person - perhaps based off someone whose images are used for inspirational reference, but not showcasing said reference as examples of 'your' character. I just fail to see the argument for this practice beyond it being convenient and popular - which are thin justifications in a creative world.
i've seen media experts use other people's photography/content with nothing more than a credit and i can assure you from industry experience this definitely happens (bearing in mind social media experts make posts on behalf of businesses, where profit is involved, so legality is far more crucial). most times they use stock/free images but when they have to discuss people/celebrities they will find a photo and post it (with credit); the way this works is because of the fair use doctrine, which allows for reasonable use as long as the use does not interfere with the owners' rights or impede their right to do with the work/photos as they wish. there are steps a person can take to bolster the fair usage of a photo.
I also wanted to point out that this is not quite accurate in regards to fair use. What makes something fair use depends on if the use is transformative enough or not - e.g. brings something new to the table like commentary, criticism, or parody. It is not merely a matter of impeding on the creator to do as they wish with their work or making profit off of it. In order to be fair use something also has to have a transformative purpose. In the case of using photographs of real people for personal convenience it is not fair use, even with credit - a credit without permission means very little.
Thanks for mentioning APB Reloaded, Sland! This is a character generator I've used before (as shown in examples for my character Maxie) to assist artists drawing my characters, it's a very useful one.
It really does seem to boil down to a lack of awareness combined with bad habits that are unfortunately quite prominent in the roleplay community - it's convenient and offers quick reward. It gives you a visual reference for minimal effort. Plus, so many people are doing it!
I suppose my feelings are reflected in my thoughts on faceclaims - which is a weirdly taboo subject I strongly encourage more discussion over. I personally think it's incredibly reasonable to expect a group of people to cease what they've been doing if it's both ethically and legally questionable. It's entirely irrelevant how long someone has been comfortably practicing thoughtless behavior - that's called 'appeal to tradition' and it's a fallacy. I also have personal thoughts on how it reflects on someone's creative ability and willingness to invest in designing a character, but that's certainly a more subjective topic - however, it most certainly colors my own perceptions. It's not just times when photographs of real people are being used for sexual based roleplay that bothers me - as my quotes suggest, I find it disrespectful of people in general.
It's difficult for me to see the reasoning to use such direct reference rather than having an artist (or character generator) help you design your own person - perhaps based off someone whose images are used for inspirational reference, but not showcasing said reference as examples of 'your' character. I just fail to see the argument for this practice beyond it being convenient and popular - which are thin justifications in a creative world.
Fiebs wrote:
i've seen media experts use other people's photography/content with nothing more than a credit and i can assure you from industry experience this definitely happens (bearing in mind social media experts make posts on behalf of businesses, where profit is involved, so legality is far more crucial). most times they use stock/free images but when they have to discuss people/celebrities they will find a photo and post it (with credit); the way this works is because of the fair use doctrine, which allows for reasonable use as long as the use does not interfere with the owners' rights or impede their right to do with the work/photos as they wish. there are steps a person can take to bolster the fair usage of a photo.
I also wanted to point out that this is not quite accurate in regards to fair use. What makes something fair use depends on if the use is transformative enough or not - e.g. brings something new to the table like commentary, criticism, or parody. It is not merely a matter of impeding on the creator to do as they wish with their work or making profit off of it. In order to be fair use something also has to have a transformative purpose. In the case of using photographs of real people for personal convenience it is not fair use, even with credit - a credit without permission means very little.
Thanks for mentioning APB Reloaded, Sland! This is a character generator I've used before (as shown in examples for my character Maxie) to assist artists drawing my characters, it's a very useful one.
edited because drunk me says "i don't like revealing information about me!" and then proceeds to do just that.
i'm going back to sleep before i keel over.
i'm going back to sleep before i keel over.
MoFryesPlez wrote:
Ah, thank you Tate! I for one, am extremely guilty of using faceclaims and allowing them. One of my biggest reasons is being unable to pay for commisions, nor being able to get my own digital drawing materials. However, this is extremely helpful and I thank you so much!
also yo if you want a
anyone else feel free too.
All of the artwork you see on my profiles are commissions that I paid for or were gifts. So I would be pretty pissed off if someone tried to use any of them for themselves without permission.
I do have a few links to non-commissioned stuff, but one I got permission from the website to do so and the other are physical items that I linked to.
I can't draw to save my life, so instead I earn my artwork without spending one penny I might add. Lot of people are willing to trade their art skills for virtual currency on other sites and that is how I have paid for all of my art bar the gifts of course.
It's doable, but you just have to be willing to be patient and work for it.
I do have one question however, is it still a face claim when you are using a picture of the back of a person's head for a hair reference? I mean you can't see the face after all. I'll admit to have borrowed pictures for a hair reference, but only in a one on one rp with the understanding that ONLY the hair style was the same.
Edit: In fact here are some wonderful pieces of art that I paid for with virtual currency.
I do have a few links to non-commissioned stuff, but one I got permission from the website to do so and the other are physical items that I linked to.
I can't draw to save my life, so instead I earn my artwork without spending one penny I might add. Lot of people are willing to trade their art skills for virtual currency on other sites and that is how I have paid for all of my art bar the gifts of course.
It's doable, but you just have to be willing to be patient and work for it.
I do have one question however, is it still a face claim when you are using a picture of the back of a person's head for a hair reference? I mean you can't see the face after all. I'll admit to have borrowed pictures for a hair reference, but only in a one on one rp with the understanding that ONLY the hair style was the same.
Edit: In fact here are some wonderful pieces of art that I paid for with virtual currency.
This is odd for me because up until I started RPing in NV, I've never in my life used a faceclaim.
I didn't even know they were a thing until only a few years ago, and this is mostly because the communities I rped in relied heavily on either stock photos of feral critters that were free use (and with that, usually HEAVILY MANIPULATED because good luck if you can find a photo of a fire-colored, winged cerberus with skulls for faces wearing armor thats on fire that carries around an asmundr spear. Really, go ahead, if you could find me a free stock image of that? Be my guest.)
However, when I had RPs for my characters (Like say, Beau or Cass) and they have no real images, I find I actually get LESS rp. For me, there seems to be no...person... That actually looks the way I want my characters to look. I am incredibly descriptive when it comes to the way my characters look, and very often, this is because they are NOT conventionally pretty or handsome. One of my favorite characters is missing 1/4 of his face. Good luck finding a stock image of that, too.
This is a problem for me because theres been increasing pressure for me to HAVE a face claim for my characters and I am too broke to afford artists and I often don't have the motivation to finish my own characters art, and so I'm left PURELY with descriptions for them.
That said, I have noticed people often use MODELS for faceclaims, and those models, while likely not caring about their images being used, had those pictures taken by PHOTOGRAPHERS, who are the ones often left out by even people who try to credit the pictures. They'll say 'Oh this is this model' but who took that picture? That's not the model's creative license.
I didn't even know they were a thing until only a few years ago, and this is mostly because the communities I rped in relied heavily on either stock photos of feral critters that were free use (and with that, usually HEAVILY MANIPULATED because good luck if you can find a photo of a fire-colored, winged cerberus with skulls for faces wearing armor thats on fire that carries around an asmundr spear. Really, go ahead, if you could find me a free stock image of that? Be my guest.)
However, when I had RPs for my characters (Like say, Beau or Cass) and they have no real images, I find I actually get LESS rp. For me, there seems to be no...person... That actually looks the way I want my characters to look. I am incredibly descriptive when it comes to the way my characters look, and very often, this is because they are NOT conventionally pretty or handsome. One of my favorite characters is missing 1/4 of his face. Good luck finding a stock image of that, too.
That said, I have noticed people often use MODELS for faceclaims, and those models, while likely not caring about their images being used, had those pictures taken by PHOTOGRAPHERS, who are the ones often left out by even people who try to credit the pictures. They'll say 'Oh this is this model' but who took that picture? That's not the model's creative license.
back at it w the devil's advocate, re: tailbone - good points and opinion. i believe it's good to discuss as a community and foster insight.
this said again, i do not condone theft or copyright infringement.
in terms of fair usage, yes, you're right, and transformative purpose is generally defined by two questions: 'has the material you have taken from the original work been transformed by adding new expression or meaning?' and 'was value added to the original by creating new information, new aesthetics, new insights, and understandings?'
it wouldn't be our jurisdiction to decide on whether face claims fall under this as a point of law, it's a matter of dissent that would have to be decided by a court and, believe me, i've searched and found no cases, no points of law, no explicit incidents relating to this widespread and increasingly popular phenomenon - and yes, it is one of convenience, i agree, but convenience is neither good nor bad.
i think if people find it restrictive of creativity that's their opinion, legal aspects aside no one here has the right to delegate what is right or wrong for a character here, not even myself. the only people that can remark on the fc usage on the website is rpr themselves. in the meantime no one is forcing you to interact with characters that have a face claim. you are the sole proponent of your own actions.
let's look at the broader picture:
as a matter of brutal, horrible honesty; people without aesthetic appeal to their rprs are seldom given a second look -- consider the vast number of players on this site that use celebrity face claims (and there are a lot of them, more so outside of rpr, more than the entire user base of this community) why do they do it? it makes rp accessible to a broader community, it's quick and easy, it fosters character and you do not have to spend hours drafting up a complex design. that's not everyone's piece of cake, they want to write and have fun, not harm anyone.
if they feel excluded here because of their preferred roleplay style they will leave to find somewhere more welcoming - and we do have a reputation to maintain as the nicest site on the internet.
i've seen a few rprs with faceclaims, i know they choose well liked actors to fit a role because maybe they've seen vampire diaries and ian somerhalder just has to be the bad guy.
you'd think by now someone like ian somerhalder who is being widely used as a faceclaim across multiple sites and platforms, if not their legal team, must be aware of it. you would expect a widespread en masse of copyright infringement to be noticed (if it was i imagine rpr would be contacted and the users would have to delete the photos or face their character being deleted to comply).
realistically, i doubt they care, if anything i believe they would encourage it (i would, advertising and exposure is expensive); it is not unheard of for these companies and representatives of celebrities to support fan sites, use of their image etc. while yes, there is the matter of a grey legal area, i do not think they care about a few people using a photo/gif to amplify their writing vs. people torrenting their movies/music, something that does harm their profit margin and incur detrimental harm.
a benefit for the use of faceclaims from new tv shows gives the actor and the tv show exposure, free advertising, it does not harm them, but it would harm an independent artist.
re: rule-63 - yes i see a very different picture when it comes to independent artists and everyday people being used for fcs.
e: this in reference to more well known celebrities, etc. re: above, that's a point with the photographers but that falls back on what's already been said about photo usage.
this said again, i do not condone theft or copyright infringement.
in terms of fair usage, yes, you're right, and transformative purpose is generally defined by two questions: 'has the material you have taken from the original work been transformed by adding new expression or meaning?' and 'was value added to the original by creating new information, new aesthetics, new insights, and understandings?'
it wouldn't be our jurisdiction to decide on whether face claims fall under this as a point of law, it's a matter of dissent that would have to be decided by a court and, believe me, i've searched and found no cases, no points of law, no explicit incidents relating to this widespread and increasingly popular phenomenon - and yes, it is one of convenience, i agree, but convenience is neither good nor bad.
i think if people find it restrictive of creativity that's their opinion, legal aspects aside no one here has the right to delegate what is right or wrong for a character here, not even myself. the only people that can remark on the fc usage on the website is rpr themselves. in the meantime no one is forcing you to interact with characters that have a face claim. you are the sole proponent of your own actions.
let's look at the broader picture:
as a matter of brutal, horrible honesty; people without aesthetic appeal to their rprs are seldom given a second look -- consider the vast number of players on this site that use celebrity face claims (and there are a lot of them, more so outside of rpr, more than the entire user base of this community) why do they do it? it makes rp accessible to a broader community, it's quick and easy, it fosters character and you do not have to spend hours drafting up a complex design. that's not everyone's piece of cake, they want to write and have fun, not harm anyone.
if they feel excluded here because of their preferred roleplay style they will leave to find somewhere more welcoming - and we do have a reputation to maintain as the nicest site on the internet.
i've seen a few rprs with faceclaims, i know they choose well liked actors to fit a role because maybe they've seen vampire diaries and ian somerhalder just has to be the bad guy.
you'd think by now someone like ian somerhalder who is being widely used as a faceclaim across multiple sites and platforms, if not their legal team, must be aware of it. you would expect a widespread en masse of copyright infringement to be noticed (if it was i imagine rpr would be contacted and the users would have to delete the photos or face their character being deleted to comply).
realistically, i doubt they care, if anything i believe they would encourage it (i would, advertising and exposure is expensive); it is not unheard of for these companies and representatives of celebrities to support fan sites, use of their image etc. while yes, there is the matter of a grey legal area, i do not think they care about a few people using a photo/gif to amplify their writing vs. people torrenting their movies/music, something that does harm their profit margin and incur detrimental harm.
a benefit for the use of faceclaims from new tv shows gives the actor and the tv show exposure, free advertising, it does not harm them, but it would harm an independent artist.
re: rule-63 - yes i see a very different picture when it comes to independent artists and everyday people being used for fcs.
e: this in reference to more well known celebrities, etc. re: above, that's a point with the photographers but that falls back on what's already been said about photo usage.
Sylvirr wrote:
This is odd for me because up until I started RPing in NV, I've never in my life used a faceclaim.
I didn't even know they were a thing until only a few years ago, and this is mostly because the communities I rped in relied heavily on either stock photos of feral critters that were free use (and with that, usually HEAVILY MANIPULATED because good luck if you can find a photo of a fire-colored, winged cerberus with skulls for faces wearing armor thats on fire that carries around an asmundr spear. Really, go ahead, if you could find me a free stock image of that? Be my guest.)
However, when I had RPs for my characters (Like say, Beau or Cass) and they have no real images, I find I actually get LESS rp. For me, there seems to be no...person... That actually looks the way I want my characters to look. I am incredibly descriptive when it comes to the way my characters look, and very often, this is because they are NOT conventionally pretty or handsome. One of my favorite characters is missing 1/4 of his face. Good luck finding a stock image of that, too.
This is a problem for me because theres been increasing pressure for me to HAVE a face claim for my characters and I am too broke to afford artists and I often don't have the motivation to finish my own characters art, and so I'm left PURELY with descriptions for them.
That said, I have noticed people often use MODELS for faceclaims, and those models, while likely not caring about their images being used, had those pictures taken by PHOTOGRAPHERS, who are the ones often left out by even people who try to credit the pictures. They'll say 'Oh this is this model' but who took that picture? That's not the model's creative license.
I didn't even know they were a thing until only a few years ago, and this is mostly because the communities I rped in relied heavily on either stock photos of feral critters that were free use (and with that, usually HEAVILY MANIPULATED because good luck if you can find a photo of a fire-colored, winged cerberus with skulls for faces wearing armor thats on fire that carries around an asmundr spear. Really, go ahead, if you could find me a free stock image of that? Be my guest.)
However, when I had RPs for my characters (Like say, Beau or Cass) and they have no real images, I find I actually get LESS rp. For me, there seems to be no...person... That actually looks the way I want my characters to look. I am incredibly descriptive when it comes to the way my characters look, and very often, this is because they are NOT conventionally pretty or handsome. One of my favorite characters is missing 1/4 of his face. Good luck finding a stock image of that, too.
That said, I have noticed people often use MODELS for faceclaims, and those models, while likely not caring about their images being used, had those pictures taken by PHOTOGRAPHERS, who are the ones often left out by even people who try to credit the pictures. They'll say 'Oh this is this model' but who took that picture? That's not the model's creative license.
lmao i thought nobody would believe me on that point -- from my own experience you literally do NOT get rp with a blank rpr. even tried the doll makers once myself, i got less bites than garlic in a vampire coven.
About half of my profiles don't have any art on them at all and yet they still get asked for rps.
OKAY this thread has been lurking as tab for hours now let's let someone who uses face claims speak up I guess huh UGH I DUNNN WAAANNAA but....
I'm best friends with an artist who rarely gets commissions yet does art for cheaper than the aforementioned 15$, and they use face claims on their own characters. Why? I haven't asked, because I don't really care. I enjoy the roleplay more than looking at their references, really, and the two aren't connected. I would never assume this famous person that I can google image search to find gifs of is actually the person I'm roleplaying with.
I, myself, use face claims for...well. All of my characters, really. Because gifs are fun, because actors are made to fill roles? I mean, if you wanted to fight the use of face claims, fight the use of gifs in guestbook comments/profiles pulled from a google image search, without a link back to the original maker, or sourcing the show/etc it was originally gif'd from.
I roleplayed in the land of forums, where FC's are the norm and artists were rare things, but since I've started rping here and on furcadia I've commissioned art of my FC'd characters..... (no, seriously; Wentworth and Pines both have art I've paid for! Crazy!)
This is not my topic to regularly defend because I don't find myself to be an artist (I can wrangle BBCode into pretty sites, but that doesn't count to me).....
I find it ironic that an artist would be the one to bring it up, when they have the ability to create where others are stuck with simple words.
I know of players who can't commission artists no matter how much they want to (virtual money isn't something I see often used, at least not on RPR, and I'm so grateful/proud of those who take it as currency for those who can't otherwise afford) I know of artists who do things for free yet still get what seems no attention, and it's simply an aesthetic choice.
I treat my roleplays as if they're AU's, where there's Wendigo Melanie Martinez's in food fights with an Alien Richard Madden and there's a mean Armie Hammer cop who has to suffer a magic using Natalie Dormer dying his hair pink. It's fanfiction. Emphasis on fiction. I can disconnect.
Using face claims is a matter of personal opinion, and there are so many loopholes, 'but only if's' that we could spend all day waffling this back and forth but those who use FC's are probably going to continue doing so...
as for the rest of this thread regarding art theft, I applaud all of it.
I'm best friends with an artist who rarely gets commissions yet does art for cheaper than the aforementioned 15$, and they use face claims on their own characters. Why? I haven't asked, because I don't really care. I enjoy the roleplay more than looking at their references, really, and the two aren't connected. I would never assume this famous person that I can google image search to find gifs of is actually the person I'm roleplaying with.
I, myself, use face claims for...well. All of my characters, really. Because gifs are fun, because actors are made to fill roles? I mean, if you wanted to fight the use of face claims, fight the use of gifs in guestbook comments/profiles pulled from a google image search, without a link back to the original maker, or sourcing the show/etc it was originally gif'd from.
I roleplayed in the land of forums, where FC's are the norm and artists were rare things, but since I've started rping here and on furcadia I've commissioned art of my FC'd characters..... (no, seriously; Wentworth and Pines both have art I've paid for! Crazy!)
This is not my topic to regularly defend because I don't find myself to be an artist (I can wrangle BBCode into pretty sites, but that doesn't count to me).....
I find it ironic that an artist would be the one to bring it up, when they have the ability to create where others are stuck with simple words.
I know of players who can't commission artists no matter how much they want to (virtual money isn't something I see often used, at least not on RPR, and I'm so grateful/proud of those who take it as currency for those who can't otherwise afford) I know of artists who do things for free yet still get what seems no attention, and it's simply an aesthetic choice.
I treat my roleplays as if they're AU's, where there's Wendigo Melanie Martinez's in food fights with an Alien Richard Madden and there's a mean Armie Hammer cop who has to suffer a magic using Natalie Dormer dying his hair pink. It's fanfiction. Emphasis on fiction. I can disconnect.
Using face claims is a matter of personal opinion, and there are so many loopholes, 'but only if's' that we could spend all day waffling this back and forth but those who use FC's are probably going to continue doing so...
as for the rest of this thread regarding art theft, I applaud all of it.
Vegas wrote:
OKAY this thread has been lurking as tab for hours now let's let someone who uses face claims speak up I guess huh UGH I DUNNN WAAANNAA but....
I'm best friends with an artist who rarely gets commissions yet does art for cheaper than the aforementioned 15$, and they use face claims on their own characters. Why? I haven't asked, because I don't really care. I enjoy the roleplay more than looking at their references, really, and the two aren't connected. I would never assume this famous person that I can google image search to find gifs of is actually the person I'm roleplaying with.
I, myself, use face claims for...well. All of my characters, really. Because gifs are fun, because actors are made to fill roles? I mean, if you wanted to fight the use of face claims, fight the use of gifs in guestbook comments/profiles pulled from a google image search, without a link back to the original maker, or sourcing the show/etc it was originally gif'd from.
I roleplayed in the land of forums, where FC's are the norm and artists were rare things, but since I've started rping here and on furcadia I've commissioned art of my FC'd characters..... (no, seriously; Wentworth and Pines both have art I've paid for! Crazy!)
This is not my topic to regularly defend because I don't find myself to be an artist (I can wrangle BBCode into pretty sites, but that doesn't count to me).....
I find it ironic that an artist would be the one to bring it up, when they have the ability to create where others are stuck with simple words.
I know of players who can't commission artists no matter how much they want to (virtual money isn't something I see often used, at least not on RPR, and I'm so grateful/proud of those who take it as currency for those who can't otherwise afford) I know of artists who do things for free yet still get what seems no attention, and it's simply an aesthetic choice.
I treat my roleplays as if they're AU's, where there's Wendigo Melanie Martinez's in food fights with an Alien Richard Madden and there's a mean Armie Hammer cop who has to suffer a magic using Natalie Dormer dying his hair pink. It's fanfiction. Emphasis on fiction. I can disconnect.
Using face claims is a matter of personal opinion, and there are so many loopholes, 'but only if's' that we could spend all day waffling this back and forth but those who use FC's are probably going to continue doing so...
as for the rest of this thread regarding art theft, I applaud all of it.
I'm best friends with an artist who rarely gets commissions yet does art for cheaper than the aforementioned 15$, and they use face claims on their own characters. Why? I haven't asked, because I don't really care. I enjoy the roleplay more than looking at their references, really, and the two aren't connected. I would never assume this famous person that I can google image search to find gifs of is actually the person I'm roleplaying with.
I, myself, use face claims for...well. All of my characters, really. Because gifs are fun, because actors are made to fill roles? I mean, if you wanted to fight the use of face claims, fight the use of gifs in guestbook comments/profiles pulled from a google image search, without a link back to the original maker, or sourcing the show/etc it was originally gif'd from.
I roleplayed in the land of forums, where FC's are the norm and artists were rare things, but since I've started rping here and on furcadia I've commissioned art of my FC'd characters..... (no, seriously; Wentworth and Pines both have art I've paid for! Crazy!)
This is not my topic to regularly defend because I don't find myself to be an artist (I can wrangle BBCode into pretty sites, but that doesn't count to me).....
I find it ironic that an artist would be the one to bring it up, when they have the ability to create where others are stuck with simple words.
I know of players who can't commission artists no matter how much they want to (virtual money isn't something I see often used, at least not on RPR, and I'm so grateful/proud of those who take it as currency for those who can't otherwise afford) I know of artists who do things for free yet still get what seems no attention, and it's simply an aesthetic choice.
I treat my roleplays as if they're AU's, where there's Wendigo Melanie Martinez's in food fights with an Alien Richard Madden and there's a mean Armie Hammer cop who has to suffer a magic using Natalie Dormer dying his hair pink. It's fanfiction. Emphasis on fiction. I can disconnect.
Using face claims is a matter of personal opinion, and there are so many loopholes, 'but only if's' that we could spend all day waffling this back and forth but those who use FC's are probably going to continue doing so...
as for the rest of this thread regarding art theft, I applaud all of it.
I THINK its less of focusing on like, models and actors and shit because thats OBVS free domain. I think they mean like, people's webcam shots or Instagram posts or Facebook photos that AREN'T famous. Like if someone wandered over to you in school and wore your skin and said 'LOOK I'M YOU'. That'd be creepy and weird and illegal.
Less 'Faceclaims' and more 'Lets not be stalkers for poor people who made the mistake of being attractive on the internet', which, lets be honest, 99% of people who use faceclaims do NOT fall into that category.
I think someone having a harder time getting roleplay, being unable to afford art or draw themselves, and image use being 'fun' are entirely irrelevant in trying to figure out if something is ethically and legally acceptable or not - those are all personal problems that don't really add to the discussion.
While animated gifs and other reference images should absolutely be a part of this conversation - we might all be too accustomed to their casual use - it seems they might be falling into more of a gray area of usage as more ethically if not legally permissible. In those cases it feels like there's a bit more context to work from - using something as an example seems a bit different from claiming the appearance of a real individual for your personal use. A matter of representation vs. replication might be a better way to put it.
I also think how famous an individual being used for a faceclaim is also irrelevant - someone being a public figure might be more susceptible to things like scrutiny and criticism, but it doesn't make them any less deserving of basic consideration. In the end you're taking the likeness of someone and claiming it for your personal use without their permission. It's that apparent 'disconnect' from 'normal' people and celebrities that's potentially a large part of what some of us consider a problem bordering on identity theft. It's only less 'creepy' because they're already in the public eye instead of an unknown individual being put in potential danger. Really, the only difference between them is that a celebrity can't get away with suing you for libel or invasion of privacy without proof of malicious intent. It seems easier and more respectful to just avoid the whole situation than assume that they 'probably' won't care. I'm not sure it even matters if they actually care or not, but 'course not everyone is going to hold my perceptions on what makes something lacking in tact.
A highly relevant video from a decently well established YouTuber. It's not exactly a 'nonissue' - there are actually companies that have come after sites for used likenesses (WWE) and many models that have actually put out 'cease and desist' requests that sites known for faceclaim use have had to answer with 'banned FC' lists.
That being said; this is all for sure just 'waffling' with ethics on my part - the real issue does boil down to if an image isn't public domain, stock, or in general permission hasn't been given, it's not technically legal. I will sure as heck agree that art theft is a more primary concern we should be dealing with as a community.
While animated gifs and other reference images should absolutely be a part of this conversation - we might all be too accustomed to their casual use - it seems they might be falling into more of a gray area of usage as more ethically if not legally permissible. In those cases it feels like there's a bit more context to work from - using something as an example seems a bit different from claiming the appearance of a real individual for your personal use. A matter of representation vs. replication might be a better way to put it.
I also think how famous an individual being used for a faceclaim is also irrelevant - someone being a public figure might be more susceptible to things like scrutiny and criticism, but it doesn't make them any less deserving of basic consideration. In the end you're taking the likeness of someone and claiming it for your personal use without their permission. It's that apparent 'disconnect' from 'normal' people and celebrities that's potentially a large part of what some of us consider a problem bordering on identity theft. It's only less 'creepy' because they're already in the public eye instead of an unknown individual being put in potential danger. Really, the only difference between them is that a celebrity can't get away with suing you for libel or invasion of privacy without proof of malicious intent. It seems easier and more respectful to just avoid the whole situation than assume that they 'probably' won't care. I'm not sure it even matters if they actually care or not, but 'course not everyone is going to hold my perceptions on what makes something lacking in tact.
A highly relevant video from a decently well established YouTuber. It's not exactly a 'nonissue' - there are actually companies that have come after sites for used likenesses (WWE) and many models that have actually put out 'cease and desist' requests that sites known for faceclaim use have had to answer with 'banned FC' lists.
That being said; this is all for sure just 'waffling' with ethics on my part - the real issue does boil down to if an image isn't public domain, stock, or in general permission hasn't been given, it's not technically legal. I will sure as heck agree that art theft is a more primary concern we should be dealing with as a community.
Faceclaims aren't art theft. Theft would insinuate that the players were claiming the photos were taken by them, or were licenced to use them for profit, or anything like that.
I doubt Kim Kardashian gives a hoonannay that some random nerd used her booty as a reference for their made up role play character.
Not everyone is an artist or has the disposable income to splurge on luxuries like character art. The computer example someone brought up is absurd because in the age of technology it's almost a necessity to have one and many people buy budget machines that last many years or are shared amongst more than one person. That's like saying if you could afford a car five years ago you should be able to afford a brand new $60 video game today.
Anyway. Using photos is fine so long as you ain't claiming you own it. Using someone else's art, well, I would suggest citing the artist and link their site at worst and try to get their permission at best.
Considering the countless forums, tumblrs and communities who use photos as REFERENCES it's definitely not worthy of 'legality issues'.
It would be like accusing photobashers of art theft because they used some pictures as a basis for their concept art. We know that's not an issue since it's a common industry method in movies, games and other media and those are mediums that profit from it, whereas here the images in question aren't used in any similar capacity.
It's a pointless crusade. A better goal would be to encourage players to source their images if they pull something off of Google.
The previous thread was removed for a reason. Attacking 90% of the website and trying to whip up a guilt trip or witch hunt or threaten nebulous allusions to legality troubles over a nonissue is pointless and not constructive in the least bit.
I doubt Kim Kardashian gives a hoonannay that some random nerd used her booty as a reference for their made up role play character.
Not everyone is an artist or has the disposable income to splurge on luxuries like character art. The computer example someone brought up is absurd because in the age of technology it's almost a necessity to have one and many people buy budget machines that last many years or are shared amongst more than one person. That's like saying if you could afford a car five years ago you should be able to afford a brand new $60 video game today.
Anyway. Using photos is fine so long as you ain't claiming you own it. Using someone else's art, well, I would suggest citing the artist and link their site at worst and try to get their permission at best.
Considering the countless forums, tumblrs and communities who use photos as REFERENCES it's definitely not worthy of 'legality issues'.
It would be like accusing photobashers of art theft because they used some pictures as a basis for their concept art. We know that's not an issue since it's a common industry method in movies, games and other media and those are mediums that profit from it, whereas here the images in question aren't used in any similar capacity.
It's a pointless crusade. A better goal would be to encourage players to source their images if they pull something off of Google.
The previous thread was removed for a reason. Attacking 90% of the website and trying to whip up a guilt trip or witch hunt or threaten nebulous allusions to legality troubles over a nonissue is pointless and not constructive in the least bit.
I have to agree with dio. On like... everything. But, I want to expand on some things...
I, for one, have no income at all right now and what money I do have is being saved meticulously so that I can buy myself new glasses soon because my current glasses have been causing very, very painful headaches. I can't afford to buy new games like Overwatch, so I don't know why people think I can just shell out money for a piece of art that will only get used for a short time and the majority of people won't even care about. (I have done some commissions recently, and it's lead to more buyer's regret than anything else because as neat as the commission are... I might not even continue using the character in the long term.)
Maybe if I had an income, the time to waste, and actually cared, I would replace the stolen work on my characters. But I don't.
Like dio says, it's better to encourage people to source stuff.
Now excuse me, because I feel another headache coming on...
I, for one, have no income at all right now and what money I do have is being saved meticulously so that I can buy myself new glasses soon because my current glasses have been causing very, very painful headaches. I can't afford to buy new games like Overwatch, so I don't know why people think I can just shell out money for a piece of art that will only get used for a short time and the majority of people won't even care about. (I have done some commissions recently, and it's lead to more buyer's regret than anything else because as neat as the commission are... I might not even continue using the character in the long term.)
Maybe if I had an income, the time to waste, and actually cared, I would replace the stolen work on my characters. But I don't.
Like dio says, it's better to encourage people to source stuff.
Now excuse me, because I feel another headache coming on...
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