Forums » Smalltalk » Let's try a generally touchy subject - Marijuana

You don't know the meaning of hungry, friend. I haven't ate because I just plain can't, for fear of my teeth being all 'HEY YOU STOP THAT NOW WE'RE GOING TO HURT SO BAD YOU CRY LIKE A BABY.'

Oh, laaaaame. Milkshake time? Use a straw lol.

I don't use and do not support the use of marijuana, but I won't get on anyones case on it (I had a few friends that smoked it, I was still friends with them I just didn't join in on smoking time). That said, I am actually against legalization of marijuana for a few reasons that others may or may not agree with. My biggest reason is the fact that it actually could do more harm than good to the states.

The reason I say this is because of cartels, dealers, and gangs. Pot is a common thing to bust people on, especially gang members. Sometimes we wouldn't even be able to put them in prison without catching them with it! Now before anyone quotes that and tears it apart, that isn't the actal reason I have, thats just a minor side note of mine. In most countries marijuana is illegal, which means the gangs and such have to be underground to create the product. Legalization would allow gangs, cartels, and dealers to freely create a product in the states and smuggle it elsewhere. This would be an atractive thing for any criminal organization. Between the increased gun control laws and marijuana legalization, criminal organizations would have an exillent place to place their drug bases, our very own USA.

So I guess to put it simply, I am against the legalization because it theoretically could: 1)Although decrease crime because of busts, actually bring more violent crimes. 2)Attract more criminal organizations. 3) Increase the smuggling into countries where it is Illegal because it is freely grown here.

I know someone is reading this and thinking of how wrong I am to themself, but if that is the case then you are only seeing one side. I do see the other side and I must say it is a pretty convincing case. To me, however, this case overroad it.

YES

YESYESYESYES

Alright. So what if we universally legalized it? That means in every country.

Also, how would cartels and gangs from other countries get over here, and bring it back out? I mean, chances are someone isn't going to fly all the way to the US just to make and smuggle drugs.

Plus, it's illegal to make your own alcohol. (i.e. moonshiners) You need a license to make and sell it here. It'd be the same for marijuana, methinks. You can't just buy and resell pot or make your own.

If it's legal to smoke and own pot, then we'd have a decrease of crime. The prisons in the US are overcrowded right now, and that's almost solely due to the drug industry. Just because something's legal doesn't mean it's gonna be everywhere.

Alcohol and tobacco are legal, but people don't generally produce their own whiskey, beer, cigarettes, etc. to sell to everyone else. Also, if we legalize it here, criminals won't be able to sell it here, which means a large part of their market will be gone.

(Please note that I totally don't care what you think about this, it honestly doesn't matter. I just really like a fun, friendly debate. )

I have nothing against it. Although, I'm bias, due to being from Washington State where it is legal, and my hometown is the biggest hippy village I've ever known. @__@ I'm thankful it was legalized there, because it has caused a huge decrease in arrests and crimes, at least at my hometown.

Your theory has some major flaws in it. I will go through these by order of operation.

1. Legalizing marijuana will attract more criminal organizations.

False. Please go read about prohibition and the effects that making substances illegal can have on organized crime.

Criminal organizations go where the money is, they go where they can operate with a decent amount of anonymity, and where they can deal without the DEA, ATF, FBI, local groups, and a few hundred thousand Narco Cops between borders crawling up their asses. That definitely makes U.S. a place where they would NOT want to set up shop. Which is why drug runners prefer Mexico and South America, currently the top pot producing points in the world.

Legalizing a renewable resource and mass-producing it is the FASTEST way to drive down the price. When you fix the price at a point low enough to put pressure on the illegal markets and allow the government to control cultivation and distribution, you leave no room for organized crime to operate without sending up red flags.

Also, if you were to look for statistics on specific cases, we’ll take Portugal for example where there were major issues with drug cartels. After de-criminalizing drugs (also allowing people to grow their own pot in some cases) in 2001 drug use among 13-15 year olds fell from 14.1 to 10.6 percent. Drug trafficking steadily dropped and drug related deaths fell from 400 to 290.

Unlike many parts of the world, US drug officials and lawyers that specialize in drug cases are attack dogs who believe in prosecuting to the fullest extent of the law. Unless you are talking about Indonesia, where they sentence people to death by firing squad for being drug mules (see Lindsay Sandiford) the US is definitely close to the top of the list of places where you would NOT want to try and set up an illegal growing and distribution center.


2. Legalizing Marijuana will contribute to more violent crimes.

False. Most violent crime that we see in relation to marijuana come from deals gone bad on the street (I actually e-mailed a friend of mine that works for Minneapolis Narcotics Unit on this one.) Weed is a relatively cheap drug in comparison to major drugs. Most violence that is drug related resulting in multiple deaths is generally connected to high volume shipments of Class A narcotics such as Heroin, Cocaine, LSD, etc. If you take the illegality out of weed (which is a Class B drug apparently, I had no idea, I didn’t think it deserved to be out of the C category… I mean, really? The biggest danger my stoner friends pose is to my freaking cookie jar.) you drive down the potential for dealing on the streets and violence resulting from those deals.

3. Distribution.

Ok, so, I would like to know how you believe a country that consumes (according to the current estimated model) 23.8 million pounds (almost 11 tons) a year illegally, (the majority of it imported) is going to find the space, resources, and manpower to manufacture that and MORE (because you are going to need at least… I will say, what, 3 times that to have a lucrative export business?) Yeeeah… I’m not really seeing the States becoming the next big pot exporter, especially if the green people get a hold of it and begin a demand for all it’s other uses. They’ll have to double up manufacturing just to keep up with hemp demand, much less smoke it.

People come to the Netherlands specifically to buy and use pot here, where it's condoned and semi-legal. There are restrictions for foreigners but generally, we don't need to export drugs because people come here to buy it from regulated places.

Our pot-related crimes are pretty low because underground dealers virtually have no footing. It does happen that people grow it illegally and sell it illegally, but it's quite rare. You have a better chance starting a legal coffeeshop and being successful than not get caught doing it behind the law's back.

In order to export pot from the US, they have to get past border checks and usually fly out to different countries. It's much easier to export pot in Europe because our borders are free to pass (you need a EU valid ID on you but there's no border control in most countries) and the distances are much shorter (I can be in Germany in just 5 minutes by car, France a couple of hours, Hungary in half a day etc.). It would be insanely hard to get pot out of the country for the US, and they don't need to supply Canada or Mexico - that's not where the profits would be. So the benefit of distribution hardly exists internationally for the country. They'd have a better chance at selling it nationally where the demand is generally high, but that demand is likely to drop upon legalization.

I like you. I was actually going to respond to Gamers with many of these same points, but you saved me the hassle. I've been on both sides of the law, and having been an individual with a background in drugs and dealing (as much as I hate to admit. I don't do it anymore), I can tell anyone that yes, violence does happen, but it's only because of deals going south; someone shorts someone some money or product, and usually by large amounts. Making it legal would indeed stop most of this; it would take the power out of the hands of the people that you need to worry about, and put money into the economy in the process.

Arrests relating to marijuana bring in a fairly decent revenue for the country, but that's short term. If you think long term, with the condition of the US economy (holy God it sucks), it would be completely beneficial. We'd be looking at a potentially 26 BILLION dollar a year industry. Instead of that money going into the pockets of drug lords and cartels, it would be going into the economy to stimulate our growth and improve everything from schools to health care. I mean, why not?

I actually had no intentions of debate, I just don't have a whole lot of time. I guess I kinda need to respond now don't I? I'll try to get to you Oaky, I'm always up for friendly debate/banter.

@Highjinx's Reply

I'd like to start of with three things:
1. As I said, it was a theory. It was something I had been mulling in my head.
2. Please be a little more polite, I was respecting your opinion and everyone elses, I ask that you at least show respect to mine, even if you would like to show why you dissagree.
3. Was the legalization of Marijuana just compared to the prohibition?

For starters, legalization and prohibition are two opposites. Also, alcohol has been a human good for milleniums. Weed, however, started rising in around the mid 1900s. That is like saying losing a friend you just made a day ago is as bad as losing a life long friend. Not to mention, that dealers wouldn't exactly go out of business with the legalization of weed, many would just move on to selling harder drugs. I just moved from a city where heroin was a large problem and was at it's cheapest. If a dealer wasn't selling pot, they went to heroin.

Now I mentioned money and I've seen it pop up a few other times. Yes, legalization of alot of things would bring a higher income to the US. Heroin, meth, LSD, etc. These all would gain us alot of money because of the people that would come over to buy it. This, however, does NOT make it right. Crime wise, despite disagreement, it actually can have crime side effects. Like shown here in this report. When more people are using, then more people will be willing to steal for it, right?

Let's move past the theories of a highschooler. I've done my research in the past and I agree that marijuana is not very addictive (in rare cases there is addition) physically. However, psychological addiction is still a problem. Not only that, but it is a gate way drug. You can argue that it is not but about one percent of users move on to harder drugs. I shall agree to that being a small percent. Except that with over 80 million Americans having tried it, one percent is eighty-thousand people.

It isn't just addictive though! According to drugabuse.gov, "Marijuana overactivates the endocannabinoid system, causing the high and other effects that users experience. These include distorted perceptions, impaired coordination, difficulty with thinking and problem solving, and disrupted learning and memory." Not only that but it can cause problems with lungs, the lung's immune system, brain function, and mental health (Source) This is on top of things we already know it can do, ie- brain cells, and so much more.

Just like alcohol can do, one might say. If so I would like to redirect you to my simile at the beginning of this post. You cannot campare what was actually a drink to survive in the past and sticks with us now, to a more recent, mostly recreational drug. Besides this, alcohol, unlike marijuana and cigarets, only effects the person that consumes it, not the people near the smokers.

Honestly, I think that it has its perks to be a medical drug, but, like many other medical drugs, it has its side effects and is only not very harmful as such.

Given the feedback I already got just from my theory I would like to reiterate that I am not looking for debate, this was responding to direct comments on my theory and then what else my reasoning was. As I said earlier, smoking it is your choice and I will not hold it against you, but I expect my opinions to be respected as I respect others. The previous were my findings and research on the drug and the reasons I think that it should remain illigal. I do not and will not use, but your life means your choices and I will respect that too. Have a lovely day everyone!

Alright, I'm going ahead and locking this topic since we're quickly getting to the 'we can't be civil anymore' point. It'll be up to Kim if this gets unlocked at some point.

Although I have been pleasantly surprised that we had as little tension as we have had so far on such a contentious topic, and am impressed by many of you as debaters, I confess to breathing a sigh of relief at its closing regardless of the reasons. There's been a great rumbling of discomfort in the wider community and a clenching of moderator bums as we tried this grand experiment in bending (or perhaps ignoring) the rules on not discussing topics like these.

Thanks for your thoughtful responses, all. But let's return to gaming now.